IssacZachary
Well-known member
Yep. I noticed that! Thanks Leftie! All the more reason to try to get a Prime.LeftieBiker said:
Thanks again to all!
I have a Leaf, so now what?
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Thanks again to all!
GRA
Well-known member
That still leaves you with the Prime and Ioniq, and the Ioniq is rated slightly worse than the Prime by the EPA, but gives you the fifth seat (if you care) and a bit more luggage space, plus a 6-speed automatic instead of a CVT. I expect either would work well for you.IssacZachary said:
Unless they changed it with the Prime, the Prius uses a "power split device" rather than a CVT.
2k1Toaster
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LeftieBiker said:
All Toyota / Lexus hybrids including the Prius have a CVT in function that they call HSD, Hybrid Synergy Drive. The magic device inside is just a series of static gears in a planetary gear arrangement, the "power split device". Large ring gear on the outside tied to MG2, small standard gear on the inside tied to MG1, and the 4 middle sun gears tied to the engine. All are directly coupled. Never can they be swapped in or out, ratios changed, anything. They are truly always static in their gearing. The beauty is that you can change the speed of the outer ring gear (vehicle speed) with a near infinite combination of MG2, MG1, and the ICE and even counter rotate MG1 at any time to charge back up the pack independently of speed! It's a pretty incredible piece of engineering. The only conceivable downside is that the HSD requires a functional hybrid system to move. In Honda's mild IMA systems if the hybrid aspect is dead or completely removed from the equation the car can still hobble on down the road. In the Prius, or any HSD vehicle, if the hybrid system is non functional MG2 can't move the vehicle and MG1 can't even start the ICE anyways.
It isn't a "CVT in function" because it doesn't function like a CVT. The driving experience is somewhat similar, just as a CVT with simulated shift points is somewhat like driving a planetary gear automatic.
The Prius is CVT "like" in the sense of not having discrete gears but the implementation is electric rather than mechanical. Mechanical tends to have reliability problems and the driving experience is ... not to most people's liking. Toyota's HSD on the other hand is awesome.
2k1Toaster
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LeftieBiker said:
It's continuously variable... Sounds like in function to me. But the implementation is unique.
Driving a CVT vehicle that uses the standard belt and cone setup isn't too bad but the reliability is crazy low and the time lag to move that belt around the cone is noticeable compared to the Prius.
Hopefully the OP gets a Prime or something that works for him. As with every emerging tech trend like BEVs/PHEVs there are some really cool vehicles on the horizon. And there always will be. If you wait a year to get that cool car, the next cool car will be announced and you wait another year, etc.
IssacZachary
Well-known member
The Ioniq is tempting. Even the 124 mile range BEV Ioniq is tempting. I don't know much about them, but I can't say I know much about the Prius either. Darn it! I just remembered I was at the library and was going to take home the 2018 April edition of Consumer Reports, which is all about cars. Maybe I'll go back and get it right now. All I remember is that they highly recommend Toyota for reliability, something that's very important to me.GRA said:
Kind of like a three-way CVT. It takes power and energy and transfers them between the engine, battery and wheels.LeftieBiker said:
Reminds me of the hydraulic CVT. It uses a couple or a few variable hydraulic pump/motors, one at the engine and one or more at the wheels. If you add a hydraulic accumulator in the middle then you'd have something similar to the Toyota setup, only hydraulic instead of electric. I've always wanted to help my brother put a hydraulic hybrid system on his 3/4 ton Chevy Scottsdale. They say they can improve city fuel mileage by 40%.
I think the HSD is better described as a torque splitter between the wheels, ICE and two m/g units using an epicyclic ("planetary") gear set. I'm not positive of the engineering, but I think each m/g unit can vary output voltage in generator mode and thereby simulate continuous, instant, wide ranging gear ratios by controlling the speed and direction of each part of the gear set.IssacZachary said:
Not all of Toyota's cars are reliable. The Camry in particular has suffered some reliability issues since the turn of the century, but the Prius has benefited from its own little sub-sub-division within Toyota, with higher quality standards.
Hah.LeftieBiker said:
Let's see your list of more reliable models over a 20 year span. Even the best of the best models have better and worse years over time, and any one car is a gamble. Overall, Toyota has a remarkable track record for reliability AND tends to outstanding corporate stewardship and customer support. An anti-Nissan, if you will.
If I had not turned into a Tesla fan, I would stay with Toyota forever.
GRA
Well-known member
Looking at the April Car edition now. the overall rating for the Prime is 73, for the Ioniq 66 (I think it's the HEV, not the PHEV [Edit] found the review, it's in the Sep. 2017 issue, and is definitely the HEV version. They also test the Prime in that issue). Predicted reliability is MBA (Much Better than Average) for the Prime, BA for the Ioniq. Same overall efficiency for both, the Prime tests the same or bit better in most categories except 0-60, where the Ioniq is 0.9 sec. faster. The Ioniq has a long stopping distance and handling is described as 'borders on clumsy', but more intuitive user controls. Price difference is about $4,800, but the Prime includes AEB etc. that are optional on the Ioniq, and again, this review refers to the HEV. Given the weight difference between the HEV and PHEV and the fact that Hyundai has had a year to make improvements, I'd say they're close enough to give them both a look when comparably optioned and see which you prefer.IssacZachary said:
IssacZachary
Well-known member
Thanks GRA and all!
As far as Toyota reliability, I have known some Scions (built by Toyota, right?) that have suffered an early engine death. One friend of mine had to have his engine replaced at about 12,000 miles in his Scion!
I know that the Prius uses special planetary gear sets and motor/generators and such. But the idea is the same. Torque and RPMs are infinitely variable at the engine, and that can be either transferred to the wheels or used to generate electricity or the electricity can be used to move the car or the momentum of the car can be turned back into electricity to charge the battery or can be used to speed up the engine for engine braking. So in the most plane explanation, it transfers power and energy between two rotating systems and one electric system. If you want to call that a CVT or Synergy drive or rocket science, it's just pretty cool whatever it is.
Personally, if it (any car) has actually fixed gears I'd prefer it to be a manual transmission although that isn't always an option. I don't care if it has 13 gears, just as long as it's a stick shift would be my preference. Seems like I remember some early Honda hybrids having stick shifts. Even if it's a CVT or Prius Synergy whatever I also would like good braking control. I don't know how the B mode reacts on a Prius because I've never used it. But on my friends Nissan Sentra I feel it's a shame the CVT has so few options for engine braking. Either you just turn off OD and still go like a rollercoaster or put it in L and put along at 20mph.
As far as Toyota reliability, I have known some Scions (built by Toyota, right?) that have suffered an early engine death. One friend of mine had to have his engine replaced at about 12,000 miles in his Scion!
I know that the Prius uses special planetary gear sets and motor/generators and such. But the idea is the same. Torque and RPMs are infinitely variable at the engine, and that can be either transferred to the wheels or used to generate electricity or the electricity can be used to move the car or the momentum of the car can be turned back into electricity to charge the battery or can be used to speed up the engine for engine braking. So in the most plane explanation, it transfers power and energy between two rotating systems and one electric system. If you want to call that a CVT or Synergy drive or rocket science, it's just pretty cool whatever it is.
Personally, if it (any car) has actually fixed gears I'd prefer it to be a manual transmission although that isn't always an option. I don't care if it has 13 gears, just as long as it's a stick shift would be my preference. Seems like I remember some early Honda hybrids having stick shifts. Even if it's a CVT or Prius Synergy whatever I also would like good braking control. I don't know how the B mode reacts on a Prius because I've never used it. But on my friends Nissan Sentra I feel it's a shame the CVT has so few options for engine braking. Either you just turn off OD and still go like a rollercoaster or put it in L and put along at 20mph.
SageBrush said:
Hondas have generally been more reliable than Toyotas (excepting hybrid models) since 2000, as I recall. I prefer to list Toyota engineering disasters, though:
* The aluminum four used in the mid Nineties through the early Aughts in the Corolla was designed with piston oiler openings so small that any deviation from a strict oil change schedule (IOW as with any Corolla driven by a typical American) would develop at least one stuck ring that could NOT be fixed except by tearing down the engine and replacing the pistons (and maybe the rods) with the "fix": TWO tiny oil holes instead of one. My GF's car used a jaw-dropping quart of oil a WEEK in just city driving. It didn't even smoke, it just clogged its converter every couple of years while chugging oil like Marco Rubio drinks water.
* Did they learn their lesson with the above-mentioned Scion 1.5L aluminum four? Nope. They typically burn a quart of oil every 1500 miles, or what a typical American engine used in 1970. Toyota would unhappily replace the motor once it was established it was using a quart every 1200 miles or more.
The rear door handles are made entirely of relatively cheap plastic (no metal except the bolts and switch), and reliably fail every 3-10 years. I just bought an aftermarket version with metal inserts to strengthen it. Now *that's* Toyota engineering!
* The 90's Camry V-6 used an engine with - once again! - too-small oil passages, that developed excessive sludge in largely short-trip driving. Toyota at first blamed it on the owners. I don't know how that turned out, except that Camry V-6 owners who liked and wanted to keep the cars switched to full synthetic oil, or faced the consequences if they didn't.
* When Toyota Jr. took over from Toyota Senior around the turn of the century, he insisted on a redesign of the Camry transmission that would require one third fewer moving parts. His engineers delivered - delivered a transmission that failed early and often. (I was involved with the Camry newsgroup in that era, as we owned a '95 Camry LE four.) For the first year they didn't even know WHY it was failing - they had to ship the dead transmissions back to Japan. Then when the Camry was redesigned again in 2008 (?) the parts and build quality went bad. I have a friend who replaced the whole exhaust system on his 2009, only to have it fail again in just a few years. It wasn't his only repair with a fairly new car. I repeat: the Prius has its own higher-quality niche in a company that used to be known for quality, and now is considered "hit or miss" depending on model and year...
IssacZachary
Well-known member
What works for one person might not work for another. What works one year doesn't the next. Ford used to be on the top right after they came out with the Model T. Then Volkswagen was known for having some of the best engineering (as people once referred to "German engineering" as a good thing.) Then Toyota became top. Honda hasn't been far behind in reliability. My grandfather had an Accord with over 400,000 miles on it, and never needed any major repair except a problem he had once with the seal behind the timing belt.
SageBrush said:
You don't seem to understand what an "anecdote" is. There was a service campaign for the Scion engines. There wouldn't exist a large aftermarket for Scion rear hatch handles if they weren't (demonstrably) made entirely of plastic. As for the Corolla engines and Camry transmissions: if you believe that large numbers of owner posts about their problems are "anecdotes," then why did you just point IsaacZachary to a site that links to thousands of owner posts? Don't be a fanboy.
Toyota sells somewhere in the ballpark of 7 million cars a year, so lets say 100 million over the past 20 years. Your anecdotes do not inform us as to overall manufacturer reliability, and they obviously say nothing about how Toyota responds to problems when they do crop up. Calling me a Tesla fanboy would be a fair charge, but since I am hopefully selling my only Toyota this weekend and have no intention of buying another, my appreciation and respect for Toyota is about as impartial as a forum post gets.LeftieBiker said:
By the way, Honda is not too far behind. Either of those two companies are really solid consumer choices.
Yes they are - IF you check the reliability and performance issues for the specific model and year. A 2001 Camry is a poor choice, while an identical-looking 2003 Camry is a good choice. If Toyota-Scion is still using that 1.5L oil-burner, then even a new Toyota-Scion four would be a good choice for leasing only.
