Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

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apzelic said:
Yesterday (6/25/18) we took our 2016 30kw-hr Leaf in for the recall 'software update' (SU) and I will report some limited data below. I did not have time to drain the battery to VLBW and record the voltage on LeafSpy, nor did I do so after the SU update (though I will be doing so; see below), but perhaps the data presented below will be helpful.


Before the SU yesterday -- when the dashboard SOC read 80% and the # of bars was 11/12 as it had been since November 2017 at 6,200 miles -- LeafSpy reported the following data:
  1. SOH = 80.1%
  2. Hx = 76.79
  3. SHVolt = 388

Immediately after the SU the Dashboard read 12/12 bars (that is we 'recovered' back to 12/12 from 11/12 bars) and the following LeafSpy data was obtained
  1. SOH = 91.6%
  2. Hx = 76.79
  3. SHVolt= 378
Click to expand...

Why is it that the Hx (the inverse of the ratio of internal battery resistances over time X 100%) has not changed with the update?
The SOH and Hx should track over time as both relate to the battery's degradation over time. The Hx of about 77% indicates that
the battery's internal conductance (reciprocal of resistance) over time has decreased by about 23%. This resulted in more heat
generation while driving and charging versus when the battery was new. Did the engineers at Nissan when designing the update
forget to also modify the Hx along with SOH and restoring the lost bars?

Another data point from up-thread; http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26009&start=50#p530487

Before update was down 2 bars

SOH: 75.45%
AHr: 56.97
Hx: 68.83%

After update all 12 bars restored

SOH: 87.71%
AHr: 69.71
Hx: 68.57%
 
jbuntz said:
QC charging 30kWh after update. It was hot out about 100°. Battery was at 99° at beginning of charge. 120° at the end. The last time I charged at this charger I started at 45kW. The charger stopped after 30 minutes. After the charger restarted I was closer to 22kW. This lasted for about 15 minutes then it started tapering again an I gave up at 2kW. Total charge time 1hr.

Is this normal? I have only QC a few times so not sure if it is due to software update.

This morning the battery temp was still 96-106°

Also driving back while trying to accelerate the motor was limited to 33kW instead of 80kW. Never seen this before either.
Click to expand...


What was starting/ending SOC for each session? I have never seen a slow down on a charge with one exception and I wrote that off as a station hiccup since neither high SOC or heat was involved.

I charged over 45 KW with batt temps at 127º
 
jbuntz said:
QC charging 30kWh after update. It was hot out about 100°. Battery was at 99° at beginning of charge. 120° at the end. The last time I charged at this charger I started at 45kW. The charger stopped after 30 minutes. After the charger restarted I was closer to 22kW. This lasted for about 15 minutes then it started tapering again an I gave up at 2kW. Total charge time 1hr.

Is this normal? I have only QC a few times so not sure if it is due to software update.

This morning the battery temp was still 96-106°

Also driving back while trying to accelerate the motor was limited to 33kW instead of 80kW. Never seen this before either.
Click to expand...

Well, if you were connected to the QC for 30 minutes, you have reached the 80% of charge for sure and over passed it. From 80% above, the charging speed reduces.

As for the power limitation, when the battery is to hot, it's normal the leaf to reduce the power. Heve you reached the red bars on the battery temperature?
 
lorenfb said:
apzelic said:
Yesterday (6/25/18) we took our 2016 30kw-hr Leaf in for the recall 'software update' (SU) and I will report some limited data below. I did not have time to drain the battery to VLBW and record the voltage on LeafSpy, nor did I do so after the SU update (though I will be doing so; see below), but perhaps the data presented below will be helpful.


Before the SU yesterday -- when the dashboard SOC read 80% and the # of bars was 11/12 as it had been since November 2017 at 6,200 miles -- LeafSpy reported the following data:
  1. SOH = 80.1%
  2. Hx = 76.79
  3. SHVolt = 388

Immediately after the SU the Dashboard read 12/12 bars (that is we 'recovered' back to 12/12 from 11/12 bars) and the following LeafSpy data was obtained
  1. SOH = 91.6%
  2. Hx = 76.79
  3. SHVolt= 378
Click to expand...

Why is it that the Hx (the inverse of the ratio of internal battery resistances over time X 100%) has not changed with the update?
The SOH and Hx should track over time as both relate to the battery's degradation over time. The Hx of about 77% indicates that
the battery's internal conductance (reciprocal of resistance) over time has decreased by about 23%. This resulted in more heat
generation while driving and charging versus when the battery was new. Did the engineers at Nissan when designing the update
forget to also modify the Hx along with SOH and restoring the lost bars?

Another data point from up-thread; http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26009&start=50#p530487

Before update was down 2 bars

SOH: 75.45%
AHr: 56.97
Hx: 68.83%

After update all 12 bars restored

SOH: 87.71%
AHr: 69.71
Hx: 68.57%
Click to expand...

SOH and Hx are different parameters. They will not necessarily follow each other as the battery ages. Right now, my 2015 with 10 capacity bars at 63661 miles has SOH at 74.22% and Hx at 51.71%. I can tell that internal resistance has increased, but it is still relatively low compared to my 2011.

There is a lot of speculation in this thread as to what the software update will actually do long term. The similar software update on my 2011 (P3227) did not change the capacity of the battery as measured by comparing L2 charging energy from Shutdown (main contactor opening) to full charge before and after, but it did greatly improve the accuracy and linearity of both dashboard instrumentation and CAN Bus data displayed by Leaf Spy.
 
GerryAZ said:
SOH and Hx are different parameters.
Click to expand...

Yes, of course!

GerryAZ said:
They will not necessarily follow each other as the battery ages.
Click to expand...

Not exactly, but degradation affects both and they should track.

You haven't answered why the Hx didn't change at all in the two examples after the update, but SOH did.



GerryAZ said:
Right now, my 2015 with 10 capacity bars at 63661 miles has SOH at 74.22% and Hx at 51.71%. I can tell that internal resistance has increased, but it is still relatively low compared to my 2011.
Click to expand...

Tests done on my '13, the 30kWh, and the 2018 indicate that the internal resistance of all three are less than 100 mohms but greater than
50 mohms. That's hardly that different. Obviously, the values vary with temp and age.

With regard to Hx, my MY13 at about 65K has a Hx of 70% versus your '15 at about the same mileage with Hx at 52%. So your internal
battery conductance has basically doubled versus mine.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
jbuntz said:
QC charging 30kWh after update. It was hot out about 100°. Battery was at 99° at beginning of charge. 120° at the end. The last time I charged at this charger I started at 45kW. The charger stopped after 30 minutes. After the charger restarted I was closer to 22kW. This lasted for about 15 minutes then it started tapering again an I gave up at 2kW. Total charge time 1hr.

Is this normal? I have only QC a few times so not sure if it is due to software update.

This morning the battery temp was still 96-106°

Also driving back while trying to accelerate the motor was limited to 33kW instead of 80kW. Never seen this before either.
Click to expand...


What was starting/ending SOC for each session? I have never seen a slow down on a charge with one exception and I wrote that off as a station hiccup since neither high SOC or heat was involved.

I charged over 45 KW with batt temps at 127º
Click to expand...

Both started at under 10 GIDs. Finished at 100% and 99%
 
jbuntz said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
jbuntz said:
QC charging 30kWh after update. It was hot out about 100°. Battery was at 99° at beginning of charge. 120° at the end. The last time I charged at this charger I started at 45kW. The charger stopped after 30 minutes. After the charger restarted I was closer to 22kW. This lasted for about 15 minutes then it started tapering again an I gave up at 2kW. Total charge time 1hr.

Is this normal? I have only QC a few times so not sure if it is due to software update.

This morning the battery temp was still 96-106°

Also driving back while trying to accelerate the motor was limited to 33kW instead of 80kW. Never seen this before either.
Click to expand...


What was starting/ending SOC for each session? I have never seen a slow down on a charge with one exception and I wrote that off as a station hiccup since neither high SOC or heat was involved.

I charged over 45 KW with batt temps at 127º
Click to expand...

Both started at under 10 GIDs. Finished at 100% and 99%
Click to expand...

You been restricted! I see the same thing in my 40 kwh pack all the time. 120º? expect 22 KW.... 125º? expect 16 KW.
 
jfr2006 said:
Hi:

Any of you that did the software fix noticed any changes on the regeneration braking or changes in the fast charge speed (kind like a rapidgate issue)?
Click to expand...
No change in Regen for me. Fast Charge is limited for high temps, but I have only FC 6 times so I am no expert.
 
OrientExpress said:
RegGuheert said:
That's meaningless information. ANYTIME the BMS is reset the capacity display returns to 12 bars for a time, regardless of the actual capacity of the battery. New software almost certainly means the BMS is reset, so we will have to wait for some time (weeks, at a minimum) to find out what changes have ACTUALLY occurred.
Click to expand...

Your statement tells me that you still don't understand the root problem that this update resolves.
Click to expand...

I was at 8 bars, 50.4 AHr, 63.41% SOH, prior to the update. Now at 11 bars, 66.1 AHr, 83.16% SOH 22k miles. The commuting range has improved from about 75-80 miles to 90 miles from 100% to turtle. I am now seeing 88-92 miles on the GOM after a full charge. LeafSpy says my total charge has increased from 17.8 kWH to 22.9 kWH.

While this is definitely an improvement, I do not feel like the software update solved the root problem of my 30 kWh battery. It seems like it has just postponed my eligibility for a replacement by a year or 2 and I will have to live with what amounts to a 24 kWh battery after I just spent the last year living with a 24 kWh and less battery.

What do you think, did this resolve my battery issues??
 
jbuntz said:
OrientExpress said:
RegGuheert said:
That's meaningless information. ANYTIME the BMS is reset the capacity display returns to 12 bars for a time, regardless of the actual capacity of the battery. New software almost certainly means the BMS is reset, so we will have to wait for some time (weeks, at a minimum) to find out what changes have ACTUALLY occurred.
Click to expand...

Your statement tells me that you still don't understand the root problem that this update resolves.
Click to expand...

I was at 8 bars, 50.4 AHr, 63.41% SOH, prior to the update. Now at 11 bars, 66.1 AHr, 83.16% SOH 22k miles. The commuting range has improved from about 75-80 miles to 90 miles from 100% to turtle. I am now seeing 88-92 miles on the GOM after a full charge. LeafSpy says my total charge has increased from 17.8 kWH to 22.9 kWH.

While this is definitely an improvement, I do not feel like the software update solved the root problem of my 30 kWh battery. It seems like it has just postponed my eligibility for a replacement by a year or 2 and I will have to live with what amounts to a 24 kWh battery after I just spent the last year living with a 24 kWh and less battery.

What do you think, did this resolve my battery issues??
Click to expand...

Your case is interesting in a few different ways;

*Your reset went immediately to 11 bars. You are the only one I know of that didnt have 12 bars for at least a short period of time

*Your fast charging speed has slowed down. Not a lot of feedback on this yet but a few have stated they saw no change while yours was throttled by a significant amount.
 
jbuntz said:
While this is definitely an improvement, I do not feel like the software update solved the root problem of my 30 kWh battery.
Click to expand...
Were you expecting a virtual TMS ? Or a software installed Tesla pack ? In the best possible scenario, your pack is degrading at a rate we expect from a 24 kWh "lizard" pack in Texas.
I'm skeptical that this is the case and that the update gave you ~ 5 kWh of extra battery capacity, but if true I would say that is awesome.
 
“I was at 8 bars, 50.4 AHr, 63.41% SOH, prior to the update.”

Jbuntz, sorry if I missed your explanation somewhere earlier, but if you were at 8 bars didn’t you qualify for a new battery? Were you required to do this SOftware downgrade (I mean Upgrade :eek: )
 
lkkms2 said:
Were you required to do this SOftware downgrade (I mean Upgrade :eek: )
Click to expand...
I’m sure he was. With the old LEAF battery, you were required to have the BMS update more than six months prior to getting your battery replaced.

jbuntz, please let us know what your LeafSpy reports over the next month or so.
 
SageBrush said:
jbuntz said:
While this is definitely an improvement, I do not feel like the software update solved the root problem of my 30 kWh battery.
Click to expand...
In the best possible scenario, your pack is degrading at a rate we expect from a 24 kWh "lizard" pack in Texas.
Click to expand...

As reality arrives!
 
lorenfb said:
SageBrush said:
jbuntz said:
While this is definitely an improvement, I do not feel like the software update solved the root problem of my 30 kWh battery.
Click to expand...
In the best possible scenario, your pack is degrading at a rate we expect from a 24 kWh "lizard" pack in Texas.
Click to expand...

As reality arrives!
Click to expand...
Apologies for my being dense, but what do you mean ?
 
SageBrush said:
lorenfb said:
SageBrush said:
In the best possible scenario, your pack is degrading at a rate we expect from a 24 kWh "lizard" pack in Texas.
Click to expand...

As reality arrives!
Click to expand...
Apologies for my being dense, but what do you mean ?
Click to expand...

Sorry for not being more explicit. Your comment is right on, i.e. the update is basically a joke!
I think I've expressed/implied that before on this thread and the other one. Nissan basically
just reduced their near term liability for warranty battery replacements on the 30kWh Leaf
with the update.
 
lorenfb said:
SageBrush said:
lorenfb said:
As reality arrives!
Click to expand...
Apologies for my being dense, but what do you mean ?
Click to expand...

Sorry for not being more explicit. Your comment is right on, i.e. the update is basically a joke!
I think I've expressed/implied that before on this thread and the other one. Nissan basically
just reduced their near term liability for warranty battery replacements on the 30kWh Leaf
with the update.
Click to expand...
The $1000 question in my mind is whether range increased. If so then Nissan also benefits but I would not hold that against them in any way. It would be unusual though; I am used to seeing Nissan benefit at the customer's expense.
 
RegGuheert said:
lkkms2 said:
Were you required to do this SOftware downgrade (I mean Upgrade :eek: )
Click to expand...
I’m sure he was. With the old LEAF battery, you were required to have the BMS update more than six months prior to getting your battery replaced.
Click to expand...

Roger that, but my letter from Nissan stated this was a “Voluntary” SW Update. It did not state it was a requirement. And did not mention any affect on the warranty coverage.
 
lkkms2 said:
“I was at 8 bars, 50.4 AHr, 63.41% SOH, prior to the update.”

Jbuntz, sorry if I missed your explanation somewhere earlier, but if you were at 8 bars didn’t you qualify for a new battery? Were you required to do this SOftware downgrade (I mean Upgrade :eek: )
Click to expand...

I missed the cut off by a couple of weeks :(
 
jbuntz said:
lkkms2 said:
“I was at 8 bars, 50.4 AHr, 63.41% SOH, prior to the update.”

Jbuntz, sorry if I missed your explanation somewhere earlier, but if you were at 8 bars didn’t you qualify for a new battery? Were you required to do this SOftware downgrade (I mean Upgrade :eek: )
Click to expand...

I missed the cut off by a couple of weeks :(
Click to expand...

There was no cut off. The reality is Nissan was getting degraded packs and upon testing, they were well over the 8 bars required for replacement so the people who did get new packs, got them thru a Nissan SW error. not from true degradation.
 

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