2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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SageBrush said:
dwl said:
To clarify, the data above is pre update.
Ahh. Any chance of getting the same data on a post update car ?
The data for voltage and measured capacity (down to cutoff just above turtle) doesn’t change in an updated car but the GIDs points do shift. I was shown a graph of GIDs vs. measured kWh which for pre-update are offset (GIDs about 2kWh lower than measured over much of the discharge curve) and on an updated car match much more closely.

From the voltage data I posted, I also have a data point which is measured capacity of 2kWh (from test cutoff) showing pack voltage 328.9V (average cell volts 3.42V) and this was on the knee (not down the steeper part). I understand VLBW with update would now come on around this voltage for this car SOH but I don’t have the results post-update. LBW should now come on at approximately the point where VLBW was previously.

It would be interesting to get observations from other cars as the results will vary depending on SOH. More detailed data possibly belongs in the thread about 2016 30kWh Battery Data at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=20924&start=580.

We have these insights in New Zealand courtesy of http://evsenhanced.com as Nissan does not support these cars here (they sold the 2011/2012 and now considering bringing in the 2018 next year). In the US with your warranties I expect there is less need for this testing but it is a pity that the earlier work such as done by Idaho National Labs hasn’t continued to build confidence that the manufacturers are being transparent. We are really grateful for tools like Leaf Spy which has enabled the citizen science approach of https://flipthefleet.org/.
 
SageBrush said:
johnlocke said:
OK, I ran my battery down to 13 GID's today. I couldn't get the value for VLB because I was going up a long grade and couldn't pull over to record it but I do have a value for VLBW (25 GIDS, 6%) 334 VDC (3.48 V/cell). 9% (32 GID's) was 336 VDC (3.50 V/cell) and 3%(13 GID's) was 330 VDC (3.44 V/cell). I didn't have any desire to find turtle so that's not included. Referring back to my notes for the original battery when new, I can see that the new battery is holding a higher voltage at low charge ( old battery was 317VDC at 3%) but that;s the only difference I see.
I'm most interested in the lowest cell pair voltage, since that is the trigger for the VLB warning.

Thanks for sharing.
All the cells were within 20 mv of each other. I have always found the VLBW and LBW warnings were always at 25 and 50 GID's no matter how much the battery capacity changed. Toward the end of the first battery's life LBW would sound off at 21% left.
 
SageBrush said:
dwl said:
To clarify, the data above is pre update.
Ahh. Any chance of getting the same data on a post update car ?

I've been posting just about every day the car needs a full charge. Today is one of those days. :)

Rather than having folks deal with the crappy formatting I'm keeping my numbers at the below URL. As of now it seems that I am degrading at a faster clip than before the software upgrade. :-( However, that could mean lots of things. By this time next year things could be much different (hopefully) or not (kinda expecting it).

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AmMHBcyzLWAx7IAfhTHs_dPgwtVW6w

No matter what, it's serving it's 9+ year commuter car purpose for us: 3 years of us driving it before the kids drive it 6+ years around town for high school and extracurricular activities.
 
Update on battery. After two months of hot weather there doesn't appear to be any deterioration. Stats are 363 GID's 82.04 AH SOH 103.22% Hx 96.15% 0 DCFC 55 L2. 2696 mi on new battery 47725 mi on the car. Hx has dropped by 1% but that's the only change I see. I still think I need to see a year's worth of data before I have any real confidence in the new battery and the software change.
 
I recently ran my 2016 Leaf (30KWH battery) to VLBW, and then got down to 6%, as indicated on the car’s display) and immediately charged it up at a Chargepoint station. After charging, the car’s display said I charged it to 100%.

The Chargepoint charger indicated that it had output 24.839 KWH for that session (from 6% to 100%). Merely taking those percentages. you’d expect that you could add 94% of the car’s total 30KWH by charging from 6% to 100%. But I only added in 82.3 % (24.839 / 30).

Would that be expected for a Feb. 2016 Leaf, or is it excessive?

(To confuse the issue a little more, the car currently shows 10 white and 2 red capacity squares (at the far right of the dash display), but when the battery was checked at 2 years last Feb., the readout from the dealer showed 11 bars for the “Current battery status” (capacity).
 
prinzler said:
I recently ran my 2016 Leaf (30KWH battery) to VLBW, and then got down to 6%, as indicated on the car’s display) and immediately charged it up at a Chargepoint station. After charging, the car’s display said I charged it to 100%.

The Chargepoint charger indicated that it had output 24.839 KWH for that session (from 6% to 100%). Merely taking those percentages. you’d expect that you could add 94% of the car’s total 30KWH by charging from 6% to 100%. But I only added in 82.3 % (24.839 / 30).

Would that be expected for a Feb. 2016 Leaf, or is it excessive?

(To confuse the issue a little more, the car currently shows 10 white and 2 red capacity squares (at the far right of the dash display), but when the battery was checked at 2 years last Feb., the readout from the dealer showed 11 bars for the “Current battery status” (capacity).

Where are you at?

Do you have the latest BMS firmware (updated in the last couple of months)?
 
WetEV said:
Where are you at?

Do you have the latest BMS firmware (updated in the last couple of months)?
I am in California (central coast)

The car had the battery controller reprogrammed in June [edit: 2018], if that's what you mean by BMS firmware.
 
prinzler said:
The Chargepoint charger indicated that it had output 24.839 KWH for that session (from 6% to 100%). Merely taking those percentages. you’d expect that you could add 94% of the car’s total 30KWH by charging from 6% to 100%. But I only added in 82.3 % (24.839 / 30).

Would that be expected for a Feb. 2016 Leaf, or is it excessive?

You do not get access to the full 30kWh in the LEAF, a certain percentage will be reserved at both the top end and bottom end of the battery, For example with the 2011 LEAF 21.3kWh of the 24kWh battery was available after accounting for reserve. This reserve is necessary to prevent premature wear of the battery at full or empty. I'm not sure what the usable capacity is for the 30kWH LEAF but I'd be surprised if it was anymore than 27kWH probably a little less.
 
JPWhite said:
You do not get access to the full 30kWh in the LEAF, a certain percentage will be reserved at both the top end and bottom end of the battery, For example with the 2011 LEAF 21.3kWh of the 24kWh battery was available after accounting for reserve. This reserve is necessary to prevent premature wear of the battery at full or empty. I'm not sure what the usable capacity is for the 30kWH LEAF but I'd be surprised if it was anymore than 27kWH probably a little less.
So let's say, for the sake of discussion, that the 30KWH battery has 27 KHW of usable capacity. When the indicator on the dash display reads 100%, is that 100% of 27KWH?
 
prinzler said:
WetEV said:
Where are you at?

Do you have the latest BMS firmware (updated in the last couple of months)?
I am in California (central coast)

The car had the battery controller reprogrammed in June [edit: 2018], if that's what you mean by BMS firmware.

Sorry for so many questions. I'm interested in how well the nominal 30 kWh batteries are doing.

Central coast of California seems to include both some fairly moderate climate places and some fairly hot climate places. Could you please indicate more?

How many miles on the car?

Battery firmware update:
https://insideevs.com/nissan-issues-software-fix-for-2016-17-leaf-battery-reporting-issues/
 
prinzler said:
JPWhite said:
You do not get access to the full 30kWh in the LEAF, a certain percentage will be reserved at both the top end and bottom end of the battery, For example with the 2011 LEAF 21.3kWh of the 24kWh battery was available after accounting for reserve. This reserve is necessary to prevent premature wear of the battery at full or empty. I'm not sure what the usable capacity is for the 30kWH LEAF but I'd be surprised if it was anymore than 27kWH probably a little less.
So let's say, for the sake of discussion, that the 30KWH battery has 27 KHW of usable capacity. When the indicator on the dash display reads 100%, is that 100% of 27KWH?
Only if battery is at 100% SOH. The 100% reading on the dash relates to the maximum the battery can make available and that value in kWh will reduce as SOH declines. I understand the dash percentage is based on GIDs with the maximum being updated by the BMS.
 
WetEV said:
prinzler said:
WetEV said:
Where are you at?

Do you have the latest BMS firmware (updated in the last couple of months)?
I am in California (central coast)

The car had the battery controller reprogrammed in June [edit: 2018], if that's what you mean by BMS firmware.

Sorry for so many questions. I'm interested in how well the nominal 30 kWh batteries are doing.

Central coast of California seems to include both some fairly moderate climate places and some fairly hot climate places. Could you please indicate more?

How many miles on the car?

Battery firmware update:
https://insideevs.com/nissan-issues-software-fix-for-2016-17-leaf-battery-reporting-issues/

Central coast of California is mostly moderate climate Nothing really extreme, 30-90 F temps.

About 30,000.

I’m not expert enough to confirm that the BMS update = ion battery reprogramming. I think that’s the same thing, but the only info I can confirm is what is on the Nissan dealer’s work order, which is merely the info I’ve already indicated.
 
dwl said:
Only if battery is at 100% SOH. The 100% reading on the dash relates to the maximum the battery can make available and that value in kWh will reduce as SOH declines. I understand the dash percentage is based on GIDs with the maximum being updated by the BMS.
I’m getting way out of my league, as I don’t have the LeafSpy, and only kinda know what it does. But i think the situation is that 100% refers to max capacity which is/can be reduced by the margin reserve (= 27 Khw) as well as reduced SOH. At best, with perfect/ideal SOH, 100% only means 27kwh, at best?
 
prinzler said:
dwl said:
Only if battery is at 100% SOH. The 100% reading on the dash relates to the maximum the battery can make available and that value in kWh will reduce as SOH declines. I understand the dash percentage is based on GIDs with the maximum being updated by the BMS.
I’m getting way out of my league, as I don’t have the LeafSpy, and only kinda know what it does. But i think the situation is that 100% refers to max capacity which is/can be reduced by the margin reserve (= 27 Khw) as well as reduced SOH. At best, with perfect/ideal SOH, 100% only means 27kwh, at best?

The 100% on the dash does modify to match the maximum current capacity. So when new, yes about 27kWh. As I understand it LEAFspy will indicate kWh remaining, but that also includes the bottom end reserve.
 
JPWhite said:
prinzler said:
dwl said:
Only if battery is at 100% SOH. The 100% reading on the dash relates to the maximum the battery can make available and that value in kWh will reduce as SOH declines. I understand the dash percentage is based on GIDs with the maximum being updated by the BMS.
I’m getting way out of my league, as I don’t have the LeafSpy, and only kinda know what it does. But i think the situation is that 100% refers to max capacity which is/can be reduced by the margin reserve (= 27 Khw) as well as reduced SOH. At best, with perfect/ideal SOH, 100% only means 27kwh, at best?

The 100% on the dash does modify to match the maximum current capacity. So when new, yes about 27kWh. As I understand it LEAFspy will indicate kWh remaining, but that also includes the bottom end reserve.
So what can we conclude about the state of my battery purely based on adding 24.839 KWH when charging from 6% to 100%, given a 27KWH capacity? If I'm adding in 92% of the 27KWH capacity (24.839 / 27) when charging 94% (6% to 100%), that would seem within the margin of error, or only a slight degradation, right?
 
prinzler said:
JPWhite said:
prinzler said:
I’m getting way out of my league, as I don’t have the LeafSpy, and only kinda know what it does. But i think the situation is that 100% refers to max capacity which is/can be reduced by the margin reserve (= 27 Khw) as well as reduced SOH. At best, with perfect/ideal SOH, 100% only means 27kwh, at best?

The 100% on the dash does modify to match the maximum current capacity. So when new, yes about 27kWh. As I understand it LEAFspy will indicate kWh remaining, but that also includes the bottom end reserve.
So what can we conclude about the state of my battery purely based on adding 24.839 KWH when charging from 6% to 100%, given a 27KWH capacity? If I'm adding in 92% of the 27KWH capacity (24.839 / 27) when charging 94% (6% to 100%), that would seem within the margin of error, or only a slight degradation, right?

Charging isn't 100% efficient. More like a bit less than 90%. So you are likely down in capacity (SOH) by roughly 10% to 15%, perhaps a bit more, perhaps a bit less. A more accurate answer would depend on things you probably can't answer, such as what was the battery temperature at start and end of charge? And a question I can't answer, which is how accurate is the Chargepoint kWh display? A more accurate recharge test would require you to have something like LeafSpy to do this test at a known temperature. And probably more fussiness.

At 30k miles and a Feb. 2016 Leaf, is it excessive?

30k miles and 2.5 years.
If down 10%, you should do much better than 100k miles and 8 years. Good news.
If down a bit less than 16%, you will just miss the warranty.
if down a bit more than 16%, you are about on track for a warranty replacement at the very end of warranty period. Congratulations, the best outcome for you.
If even more, excessive, especially in your reasonable climate. you should get a warranty replacement, but isn't good news.

If exactly on track to hit the warranty, you would be down about 16% or a bit more due to seasonality of loss. And you wouldn't have all 12 capacity bars. So my best guess is that you will miss the warranty, perhaps by quite a bit.


Some background, NOT adjusted for seasonality of loss:
https://insideevs.com/battery-capacity-loss-chart-2016-30-kwh-nissan-leaf/
2016leafplot.jpg


leaf3.jpg
 
WetEV said:
. . . .
So my best guess is that you will miss the warranty, perhaps by quite a bit.
I suppose I'll keep monitoring the situation just in case a warranty replacement is in the works.

One odd bit that I mentioned earlier parenthetically: the car currently shows 10 white and 2 red capacity squares at the far right of the dash display, yet the print-out from the dealer's battery capacity status check from Feb. this year (@ 2-year check-up) showed 11 squares (blocks) for current battery status. Rounding error?
 
prinzler said:
WetEV said:
. . . .
So my best guess is that you will miss the warranty, perhaps by quite a bit.
I suppose I'll keep monitoring the situation just in case a warranty replacement is in the works.

One odd bit that I mentioned earlier parenthetically: the car currently shows 10 white and 2 red capacity squares at the far right of the dash display, yet the print-out from the dealer's battery capacity status check from Feb. this year (@ 2-year check-up) showed 11 squares (blocks) for current battery status. Rounding error?

No, a result of the firmware update.

https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-nissan-leaf-firmware-update-to-correct-capacity-reporting/

decay_comparison-768x579.png
 
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