Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

1) do u have an outlet? check. okay you're good to go EV.

2) do you have a hydrogen set-up to produce pressurized gaseous fuel? no? okay see question one.

Yes, it IS a shorter list of questions. huh. imagine that.

It's completely laughable that a fuel cell POS has LESS restrictions than a simple EV. Laugh-a-bull.

GRA said:

I often feel much the same way having to repeat the same arguments over and over again, with total lack of comprehension on the other side, but I persevere.

Click to expand...

If you had actual experience in owning a BEV, you might understand the "other side's" arguments, and why they don't agree with you...

GRA said:

WetEV said:

GRA said:

The question is will that always be the case?

Click to expand...

Yes, if you do the math. Fixed fuel cells and BEVs are a better deal. Likely to stay so, as well. The reason is efficiency. The BEV can charge off of excess renewable production 80+% of the time, at 90+% efficiency. The fixed fuel cell can supply the rest of the time, and while fixed fuel cell efficiency is poor, perhaps 50% round trip at best, is better than a fuel cell efficiency in a FCEV, due to scale factors and heat recovery. Notice that the poor efficiency is 100% of the time with FCEVs, and only less than 20% with BEVs.

Click to expand...

OTOH, BEV efficiency drops considerably when they have to provide CHP

Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHP

Hmm... Perhaps cabin heat??


If cabin heat, a BEV is always better than a FCEV. Do the math. Sure, the difference can be smaller when waste heat can be used. Most of heat from a fuel cell is wasted, most of the time, and will not be used. Advantage BEV.

GRA said:

bringing operational advantages/disadvantages more to the fore.

Click to expand...

A BEV is more convenient for most driving. You really need to commute with a BEV for a while to understand, GRA, just how nice it is to not have to take time out of a busy day to stop at a gasoline station. Or hydrogen station. Other than for a few people that only drive long distances, advantage BEV.

GRA said:

Every time a newbie comes to MNL and ask whether a LEAF or some other BEV will work for them, we have to play 20 questions with them, where they live, how far do they need to drive, for how long (so we need to tell them about degradation and SoC range), how fast, what's the climate like, what kind of housing do they live in (how will they charge and where), and on and on.

Click to expand...

But that's because they are asking about a LEAF, with either restricted range or battery pack deficiencies.

You don't need to worry about such things with a Bolt or a Tesla. That will likely be true for any other BEV with decent range.

rcm4453 said:

Range and HVAC use are becoming less of a concern with the 200+ mile range BEVs. All you really have to learn how to do is plug it in when you get home and unplug it when you head off to work, not that hard really.

Click to expand...

Range/HVAC use are LESS of a concern, not ZERO concern, which is what they are with ICEs and would be with FCEVs. As BEV range increases and the charging infrastructure (QC and otherwise) continues to build and increases its speed, we hope that eventually they will no longer be of any concern. We aren't there yet. As I've pointed out repeatedly, the U.S. isn't the world, and most of the world can't charge at home. To quote from the McKinsey report I've referenced elsewhere:

Only 40 percent of European and 30 percent of Chinese EV owners have access to private parking and wall charging, versus 75 percent of US EV owners.

Click to expand...

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26273&p=533418&hilit=mckinsey#p533418

Note that these numbers refer to PEV owners, not the public as a whole, so these % are inflated and reflect self-selection: the people buying EVs now are the ones who can best take advantage of them.

finman100 said:

1) do u have an outlet? check. okay you're good to go EV.

Click to expand...

Just a bit more complex than that, isn't it? Do you have an outlet located where you need it? [In my case, no]. Do you need L2 (if you need long range on a daily basis, you do), and if so, do you have such an outlet? If not, how much hassle will it be for you to pull a permit and get an electrician to add one for you? [As I rent, and the service capacity is limited, major] Do you have access to off-peak rates, or will using more electricity bump you up to a higher tier where you're paying more than the price of gasoline? [See rent].

2) do you have a hydrogen set-up to produce pressurized gaseous fuel? no? okay see question one.[/quote]
Do you have an H2 station near your home, work or conveniently en route, just like you figure when buying gas now? The type of housing you live in is irrelevant, as is where you work.

finman100 said:

Yes, it IS a shorter list of questions. huh. imagine that.

It's completely laughable that a fuel cell POS has LESS restrictions than a simple EV. Laugh-a-bull.

Click to expand...

You're right, it is laughable, but the restrictions work the other way (always assuming that the H2 stations are built, but then if you don't have a convenient one you have no business buying or leasing an FCEV).

WetEV said:

GRA said:

I often feel much the same way having to repeat the same arguments over and over again, with total lack of comprehension on the other side, but I persevere.

Click to expand...

If you had actual experience in owning a BEV, you might understand the "other side's" arguments, and why they don't agree with you...

Click to expand...

To repeat, actual experience of owning one isn't going to tell me what I already know, that a BEV is less convenient for me (and many other people) given my/our situation(s). If I know I need a CUV, how is owning a two-seat sports car going to tell me anything useful?

For the people for whom a BEV can work now, terrific, but how does that relate to my needs? Would owning a BEV magically install an outlet that wouldn't require me to run an extension cord out a window or door (year-round, including the heating season) in order to charge it (L1 only)? No.

Would it magically convince my landlord to pay to install such an outlet? No.

Would it magically upgrade the service entrance and run an L2 circuit and receptacle to where I need it? No.

Would it magically reduce the price of my closest public L2 stations so that they are cheaper than buying gasoline? No.

Would it magically move those stations which are better priced closer to me so that they are convenient? No.

Would it magically build QC stations where I need them to get to the places I wish to drive to? No.

Would the range magically increase and charging times magically decrease so that I'd waste far less of my free time sitting around charging the car on trips, instead of enjoying the recreation I took the trip for? No.

So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV that will make it more useful to me, that I can't already determine just by looking at my situation, reading spec sheets, test driving BEVs, and reading owner and magazine reports?

jlv said:

GRA said:

Every time a newbie comes to MNL and ask whether a LEAF or some other BEV will work for them, we have to play 20 questions with them, where they live, how far do they need to drive, for how long (so we need to tell them about degradation and SoC range), how fast, what's the climate like, what kind of housing do they live in (how will they charge and where), and on and on.

Click to expand...

But that's they are asking about a LEAF, with either restricted range or battery pack deficiencies.

You don't need to worry about such things with a Bolt or a Tesla. That will likely be true for any other BEV with decent range.

Click to expand...

If you plan to do anything more than local driving, you still need to know this stuff. You need to know about QC speeds and taper points, the effects of speed and temp, ATM or not, where and how you'll charge etc.

WetEV said:

GRA said:

WetEV said:

Yes, if you do the math. Fixed fuel cells and BEVs are a better deal. Likely to stay so, as well. The reason is efficiency. The BEV can charge off of excess renewable production 80+% of the time, at 90+% efficiency. The fixed fuel cell can supply the rest of the time, and while fixed fuel cell efficiency is poor, perhaps 50% round trip at best, is better than a fuel cell efficiency in a FCEV, due to scale factors and heat recovery. Notice that the poor efficiency is 100% of the time with FCEVs, and only less than 20% with BEVs.

Click to expand...

OTOH, BEV efficiency drops considerably when they have to provide CHP

Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHP

Hmm... Perhaps cabin heat??


If cabin heat, a BEV is always better than a FCEV. Do the math. Sure, the difference can be smaller when waste heat can be used. Most of heat from a fuel cell is wasted, most of the time, and will not be used. Advantage BEV.

Click to expand...

As I've pointed out, few people will care.

WetEV said:

GRA said:

bringing operational advantages/disadvantages more to the fore.

Click to expand...

A BEV is more convenient for most driving. You really need to commute with a BEV for a while to understand, GRA, just how nice it is to not have to take time out of a busy day to stop at a gasoline station. Or hydrogen station. Other than for a few people that only drive long distances, advantage BEV.

Click to expand...

See my other post. For the umpteenth time. most of the world's drivers do not live in detached single family homes with dedicated garages served by electricity, i.e. they do not have access to home charging. Like them, I would have to take more time out of my schedule to charge a BEV than I would to get gas. And my commute is done on my ZEV bicycle - unlike a car, it really does provide door to door service, as I carry it out my front door and then carry it inside the door at work :lol: . As my bike weighs 30 lb. and a BEV like a LEAF weighs 3,400, there really is no comparison re efficiency.

Just to include some occasional Mirai news in the Mirai thread, per IEVS 137 Mirais were sold in the U.S. in July, making 880 for the year. Last YTD it was 790, so they're up a bit despite the near stagnation in station openings, and they have more competition from the Clarity now.

GRA said:

WetEV said:

... a BEV is always better than a FCEV. Do the math. Sure, the difference can be smaller when waste heat can be used. Most of heat from a fuel cell is wasted, most of the time, and will not be used. Advantage BEV.

Click to expand...

As I've pointed out, few people will care.

Click to expand...

So they will not care. Interesting, EVgo and Blink charge more for electric power than gasoline, and that is a "BEV killer", according to you. Hydrogen is going to be 3 to 4 times as much as EVgo and Blink, and no one will care. Interesting. Not convincing.

GRA said:

WetEV said:

Click to expand...

bringing operational advantages/disadvantages more to the fore.

Click to expand...

A BEV is more convenient for most driving. You really need to commute with a BEV for a while to understand, GRA, just how nice it is to not have to take time out of a busy day to stop at a gasoline station. Or hydrogen station. Other than for a few people that only drive long distances, advantage BEV.[/quote]

GRA said:

most of the world's drivers do not live in detached single family homes with dedicated garages served by electricity, i.e. they do not have access to home charging.

Click to expand...

For the umpteenth time, home charging isn't limited to "detached single family homes with dedicated garages served by electricity". Have a wall you park near? How about just a curb?

GRA said:

WetEV said:

GRA said:

I often feel much the same way having to repeat the same arguments over and over again, with total lack of comprehension on the other side, but I persevere.

Click to expand...

If you had actual experience in owning a BEV, you might understand the "other side's" arguments, and why they don't agree with you...

Click to expand...

To repeat, actual experience of owning one isn't going to tell me what I already know, that a BEV is less convenient for me (and many other people) given my/our situation(s). If I know I need a CUV, how is owning a two-seat sports car going to tell me anything useful?

For the people for whom a BEV can work now, terrific, but how does that relate to my needs? Would owning a BEV magically install an outlet that wouldn't require me to run an extension cord out a window or door (year-round, including the heating season) in order to charge it (L1 only)? No.

Would it magically convince my landlord to pay to install such an outlet? No.

Would it magically upgrade the service entrance and run an L2 circuit and receptacle to where I need it? No.

Would it magically reduce the price of my closest public L2 stations so that they are cheaper than buying gasoline? No.

Would it magically move those stations which are better priced closer to me so that they are convenient? No.

Would it magically build QC stations where I need them to get to the places I wish to drive to? No.

Would the range magically increase and charging times magically decrease so that I'd waste far less of my free time sitting around charging the car on trips, instead of enjoying the recreation I took the trip for? No.

So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV that will make it more useful to me, that I can't already determine just by looking at my situation, reading spec sheets, test driving BEVs, and reading owner and magazine reports?

Click to expand...

If you're considering an extension cord, then you can at least park near your unit. Is it dedicated parking? If so, then I love how you worded your issues: "convince my landlord to pay"

As opposed to pay for it yourself, which you've been allowed to do since 2014 as a CA resident. The fueling savings usually is enough to justify the expense.

As for the receptacle run, get multiple quotes, then decide if it's too expensive. Not the other way around. A 220V 15A receptacle is all that's needed for most people's daily commutes.

All the other "issues" become muted when you have at home (as opposed to in-garage) charging. Besides, many grocery stores now have EVSE's available for their patrons. I assume you have to buy groceries at least once a week?

"So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV" - you'll learn that unlike your need for an SUV, living with a BEV isn't a physical limitation, but a psychological one. Stopping by a gas station regularly is a terrible waste of time.

GRA said:

Would it magically reduce the price of my closest public L2 stations so that they are cheaper than buying gasoline? No.

Click to expand...

Renewable hydrogen is likely to be three times as expensive as an L2 station. Or more.

Putting GRA on my ignore list does not work when people Quote him. Otherwise the forum just mentions that he posted.

WetEV said:

GRA said:

WetEV said:

... a BEV is always better than a FCEV. Do the math. Sure, the difference can be smaller when waste heat can be used. Most of heat from a fuel cell is wasted, most of the time, and will not be used. Advantage BEV.

Click to expand...

As I've pointed out, few people will care.

Click to expand...

So they will not care. Interesting, EVgo and Blink charge more for electric power than gasoline, and that is a "BEV killer", according to you. Hydrogen is going to be 3 to 4 times as much as EVgo and Blink, and no one will care. Interesting. Not convincing.

Click to expand...

As I've said, H2 must be price-competitive with gas. It doesn't have to be superior. But BEVs are different, as long as they take far longer to replenish their energy, they have to be cheaper than gas. Otherwise, there's no advantage for the average person who has to drive to charge at a public station, just as they do with an ICE or FCE), and that's the situation for most of the world's drivers. AVs with public wireless charging can eliminate that disadvantage for local use, at some loss of efficiency due to both charging and in deadhead miles, but aside from the air pollution benefits which most people don't care all that much about unless smog noticeably affects them personally, what's the compelling interest for the average person to switch?

WetEV said:

A BEV is more convenient for most driving. You really need to commute with a BEV for a while to understand, GRA, just how nice it is to not have to take time out of a busy day to stop at a gasoline station. Or hydrogen station. Other than for a few people that only drive long distances, advantage BEV.

Click to expand...

See my other post. A BEV is more convient than an ICE for routine local use, provided you have a guaranteed place to charge it at home or work[/i]; otherwise not. I commute just fine without having to take time out of a busy day to stop at a gas station without owning a BEV. My ZEV cost me $250, used, and saves me lots on health care. Of course, for many longer intra-regional trips I do use a very energy-efficient ZEV (on a passenger-mile basis) along with my personal ZEV: https://goo.gl/images/PB7CB3

GRA said:

most of the world's drivers do not live in detached single family homes with dedicated garages served by electricity, i.e. they do not have access to home charging.

Click to expand...

For the umpteenth time, home charging isn't limited to "detached single family homes with dedicated garages served by electricity". Have a wall you park near? How about just a curb?





[/quote]

Very nice. For the umpteenth time, just who is going to pay for this in a rental housing property? You keep harking back to the convenience advantages of home charging, so how does a Tesla destination charger at a hotel have anything to do with that?

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

GRA said:

WetEV said:

If you had actual experience in owning a BEV, you might understand the "other side's" arguments, and why they don't agree with you...

Click to expand...

To repeat, actual experience of owning one isn't going to tell me what I already know, that a BEV is less convenient for me (and many other people) given my/our situation(s). If I know I need a CUV, how is owning a two-seat sports car going to tell me anything useful?

For the people for whom a BEV can work now, terrific, but how does that relate to my needs? Would owning a BEV magically install an outlet that wouldn't require me to run an extension cord out a window or door (year-round, including the heating season) in order to charge it (L1 only)? No.

Would it magically convince my landlord to pay to install such an outlet? No.

Would it magically upgrade the service entrance and run an L2 circuit and receptacle to where I need it? No.

Would it magically reduce the price of my closest public L2 stations so that they are cheaper than buying gasoline? No.

Would it magically move those stations which are better priced closer to me so that they are convenient? No.

Would it magically build QC stations where I need them to get to the places I wish to drive to? No.

Would the range magically increase and charging times magically decrease so that I'd waste far less of my free time sitting around charging the car on trips, instead of enjoying the recreation I took the trip for? No.

So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV that will make it more useful to me, that I can't already determine just by looking at my situation, reading spec sheets, test driving BEVs, and reading owner and magazine reports?

Click to expand...

If you're considering an extension cord, then you can at least park near your unit. Is it dedicated parking? If so, then I love how you worded your issues: "convince my landlord to pay"

As opposed to pay for it yourself, which you've been allowed to do since 2014 as a CA resident. The fueling savings usually is enough to justify the expense.

Click to expand...

I've talked about it with him. Unfortunately all the wiring runs from the main house, which is where the only meter is (utilities are included in rent since there's now ay to bill separately), the service entrance can't handle the load, and it's 120V only at the moment. In addition, since I commute and travel locally by bike, intra-regionally by electric mass transit and only need a car for trips, a BEV simply doesn't benefit me for now given their other limitations (range and infrastructure). Be that as it may, I'm trying to negotiate a long-term lease with him that would justify me paying to do all that work and/or adding solar when and if BEVs/infrastructure improves to the point that they might meet my needs. but the far simpler and cheaper option would be that affordable and convenient public charging would bebuilt nearby, saving all the hassle and expense.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

As for the receptacle run, get multiple quotes, then decide if it's too expensive. Not the other way around. A 220V 15A receptacle is all that's needed for most people's daily commutes

Click to expand...

See above for the numerous reasons that's inapplicable now.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

All the other "issues" become muted when you have at home (as opposed to in-garage) charging. Besides, many grocery stores now have EVSE's available for their patrons. I assume you have to buy groceries at least once a week?

Click to expand...

More than that. My grocery store is five block away, and I walk there and back. I also walk to my bank, barber, dry cleaner, post office, library, dentist and virtually every other routine errand, as they're all within that 5 block radius - many are within two blocks. I chose to live in this location specifically because I wouldn't need to use my car for anything routine.See what I mean about a BEV not being of any advantage to me for local use?

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

"So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV" - you'll learn that unlike your need for an SUV, living with a BEV isn't a physical limitation, but a psychological one. Stopping by a gas station regularly is a terrible waste of time.

Click to expand...

See above. My gas station visits tend to be months apart.

GRA said:

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

GRA said:

To repeat, actual experience of owning one isn't going to tell me what I already know, that a BEV is less convenient for me (and many other people) given my/our situation(s). If I know I need a CUV, how is owning a two-seat sports car going to tell me anything useful?

For the people for whom a BEV can work now, terrific, but how does that relate to my needs? Would owning a BEV magically install an outlet that wouldn't require me to run an extension cord out a window or door (year-round, including the heating season) in order to charge it (L1 only)? No.

Would it magically convince my landlord to pay to install such an outlet? No.

Would it magically upgrade the service entrance and run an L2 circuit and receptacle to where I need it? No.

Would it magically reduce the price of my closest public L2 stations so that they are cheaper than buying gasoline? No.

Would it magically move those stations which are better priced closer to me so that they are convenient? No.

Would it magically build QC stations where I need them to get to the places I wish to drive to? No.

Would the range magically increase and charging times magically decrease so that I'd waste far less of my free time sitting around charging the car on trips, instead of enjoying the recreation I took the trip for? No.

So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV that will make it more useful to me, that I can't already determine just by looking at my situation, reading spec sheets, test driving BEVs, and reading owner and magazine reports?

Click to expand...

If you're considering an extension cord, then you can at least park near your unit. Is it dedicated parking? If so, then I love how you worded your issues: "convince my landlord to pay"

As opposed to pay for it yourself, which you've been allowed to do since 2014 as a CA resident. The fueling savings usually is enough to justify the expense.

Click to expand...

I've talked about it with him. Unfortunately all the wiring runs from the main house, which is where the only meter is (utilities are included in rent since there's now ay to bill separately), the service entrance can't handle the load, and it's 120V only at the moment. In addition, since I commute and travel locally by bike, intra-regionally by electric mass transit and only need a car for trips, a BEV simply doesn't benefit me for now given their other limitations (range and infrastructure). Be that as it may, I'm trying to negotiate a long-term lease with him that would justify me paying to do all that work and/or adding solar when and if BEVs/infrastructure improves to the point that they might meet my needs. but the far simpler and cheaper option would be that affordable and convenient public charging would bebuilt nearby, saving all the hassle and expense.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

As for the receptacle run, get multiple quotes, then decide if it's too expensive. Not the other way around. A 220V 15A receptacle is all that's needed for most people's daily commutes

Click to expand...

See above for the numerous reasons that's inapplicable now.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

All the other "issues" become muted when you have at home (as opposed to in-garage) charging. Besides, many grocery stores now have EVSE's available for their patrons. I assume you have to buy groceries at least once a week?

Click to expand...

More than that. My grocery store is five block away, and I walk there and back. I also walk to my bank, barber, dry cleaner, post office, library, dentist and virtually every other routine errand, as they're all within that 5 block radius - many are within two blocks. I chose to live in this location specifically because I wouldn't need to use my car for anything routine.See what I mean about a BEV not being of any advantage to me for local use?

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

"So tell, me, what exactly will I learn by owning a BEV" - you'll learn that unlike your need for an SUV, living with a BEV isn't a physical limitation, but a psychological one. Stopping by a gas station regularly is a terrible waste of time.

Click to expand...

See above. My gas station visits tend to be months apart.

Click to expand...

You, sir, do NOT need a vehicle. This whole BEV vs ICE vs FCEV argument is pointless in your position. The lowest emission solution for your situation is to continue biking/walking/mass-transit to all your destinations and then keeping your existing vehicle for all your long range needs (or RENTING one if it's infrequent enough - maybe Zipcar?).

Your situation is unique in that it needs to weigh far more than the emissions and fueling convenience of the technologies in question and factor in the production costs and maintenance interval of the vehicles as well before determining what is "best".

Funny enough, in your situation, where your fueling intervals are months apart, an FCEV is actually NOT a viable solution, since much of your "fuel" would have leaked before you make much use of it. A CNG (Honda Civic CNG) would be your lowest emission solution, since it's the lowest emission combustion-based vehicle with a somewhat decent fueling infrastructure. A state-less BEV like a Bolt could also work, since it won't vampire drain like a Tesla would, and so you can keep it parked at 70% most of the time.

Although an ICE won't need to be fueled often, it still needs maintenance, and the fuel has to be stirred to keep from going stale. Really your use case is NOT anywhere near normal for the rest of the nation (don't try to be cute and consider the "worldwide" population as that's just BS).

Having written all that, I now see that you're trolling. Your transportation arrangement puts you in no position to argue with people who live in a way that reflects the habits of MOST of the nation. I now understand why your arguments seemed specious, because they were all baseless and without any grounding reality. It's the reason why "the other side" lacks comprehension, because there's nothing to comprehend other than your desire to stir the pot.

At this point, I anticipate that you'll retort with how you don't need direct experience to understand logical concepts. I will put you on my ignore list if that's what you truly believe.

Are you a bot?

GRA said:

Very nice. For the umpteenth time, just who is going to pay for this in a rental housing property? You keep harking back to the convenience advantages of home charging, so how does a Tesla destination charger at a hotel have anything to do with that?

Click to expand...

Now, or in decades in the future?

Now I'd guess only people in fairly high end rental properties are likely to afford BEVs. Even the LEAF is not an cheap car. Remember, where is the next doubling of EV sales coming from?

It would seem to me once many of the cars on the road were BEVs that landlords would need to start to offer charge stations to attract and hold good clients. Similar priced and requires installation appliances are fairly close to universal, but didn't used to be: like indoor plumbing, water heaters and refrigerators. While in Massachusetts, I rented a hundred year old house. The kitchen had been remodeled in the 1940's to add space for a refrigerator. The original coal furnace had been disconnected, and replaced by a gas boiler and a gas fired water heater was added. Some much older houses had been remodeled to add toilets, sinks and such.

Change happens. One tiny step at a time.

Low rent properties with 120V only service are not a problem likely to constrain BEV growth for decades to come. Unlike the high cost of hydrogen.

BTW: I was looking for assorted pictures of charging stations outdoors. If you owned a Tesla, and didn't have a garage, you might have something like that installed at home.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

Having written all that, I now see that you're trolling. Your transportation arrangement puts you in no position to argue with people who live in a way that reflects the habits of MOST of the nation. I now understand why your arguments seemed specious, because they were all baseless and without any grounding reality. It's the reason why "the other side" lacks comprehension, because there's nothing to comprehend other than your desire to stir the pot.

Click to expand...

He has been on my ignore list for months, and I see no reason to change my decision. I don't think he is a troll, just a lonely guy with good intentions and a stubborn streak who wants to talk about himself incessantly and gain some validation from the internet. I've known more than a few smart, young progressive hippies who ended up like him as they grew older. It may yet happen to me.

He has no good reason to be in this thread except to talk about himself. I'm glad that he has solved a lot of his personal transport in an environmental manner and in his shoes I would be looking for ways to solve the remainder. Other threads, perhaps other forums.

I actually empathize with him somewhat, but constructive, fruitful discussion is just not going to happen. He is too myopic to accept the obvious: the large majority of people considering an EV do not live like him; do not want to live like him; are not able to live like him; and do not share his vacation preferences. He is like a deaf man arguing with the blind community that Braille is crap because it does not serve his needs.

WetEV said:

GRA said:

Would it magically reduce the price of my closest public L2 stations so that they are cheaper than buying gasoline? No.

Click to expand...

Renewable hydrogen is likely to be three times as expensive as an L2 station. Or more.

Click to expand...

We're not concerned with what's 'likely', we're concerned with what it will be. At the moment, public for-profit L2 stations in the U.S. aren't profitable unless they charge more than the price of gasoline. H2 is also currently non-competitive with gas, and more expensive than L2. The price of H2 is coming down (cheapest in California is the $9.99/kg at Air Products stations), but that's only 33% renewable. The DoE's early market H2 goal is $7gge (gallons of gas equivalent) and with current California gas prices ($3.62 avg, today) I imagine $10/kg. meets that standard easily, assuming a typical 30 mpg ICE. HEVs do a lot better than a conventional ICE, but then they're only a small % of the fleet and not ZEV. The DoE's H2 goal is $4gge (untaxed)., but I don't remember if that's for 100% renewable H2 or not, and 100% renewable must be the ultimate end game. See

Hydrogen Production & Delivery Program
- Plenary Presentation

Click to expand...

https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review17/pd000_miller_2017_o.pdf

That's for the U.S. $10/kg. would already be cost competitive with gas in many if not most European countries, in fact it would be cheaper. Now, since almost this entire discussion belongs in the H2 and FCEV topic instead of here. if you feel the need to reply, how about doing it there?