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GetOffYourGas said:
You will always choose EV for local driving and always choose ICE for long distance.
Yep if we are talking about EVs that are not Tesla, which is why I suspect the EA installed network will be a white elephant.
 
SageBrush said:
GetOffYourGas said:
You will always choose EV for local driving and always choose ICE for long distance.
Yep if we are talking about EVs that are not Tesla, which is why I suspect the EA installed network will be a white elephant.

Well, based on your assumptions (that the majority is fuel agnostic, and only cares about convenience), that's the logical conclusion. But the same can be said for Tesla, since a gas car will be much more convenient than a Tesla for road trips in the foreseeable future.

I just disagree with your assumption, based in part on Tesla's success.
 
The car does not choose maximum possible amperage. That is the station. All the EVGO stations started here at 100 amps. All have been turned up to anywhere between 118 and 130 amps. Now why they vary, dk but thats the facts.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
SageBrush said:
GetOffYourGas said:
You will always choose EV for local driving and always choose ICE for long distance.
Yep if we are talking about EVs that are not Tesla, which is why I suspect the EA installed network will be a white elephant.

Well, based on your assumptions (that the majority is fuel agnostic, and only cares about convenience), that's the logical conclusion. But the same can be said for Tesla, since a gas car will be much more convenient than a Tesla for road trips in the foreseeable future.

I just disagree with your assumption, based in part on Tesla's success.
Convenience and Fuel cost.

You are right that the first x miles of battery is from the origin but Americans do not think that way when calculating fuel costs. With no small amount of difficulty they figure out the marginal cost per mile. Tesla Model 3 owners know they charge at ~ 3 cents a mile * away from home (varies by state, etc.) Non Tesla cars using the EA network will figure out that it costs them over 10 - 13 cents a mile. The Tesla success is built on large batteries, long range, and fast, convenient and cheap charging. Non Teslas on the EA network share exactly none of those attributes.

A future CCS car that covers 300+ miles of highway driving and actually charges at 150 kW could replicate the Tesla success if the charging network was Tesla like in its distribution, availability and reliability. For now and the for-seeable future the EA network is still-born.

A Tesla is remarkably convenient to drive away from home. I think you have to own one to really appreciate how advanced they are over the 'competition.' E.g., my wife and I just drove ~ 250 miles this morning to our home in the neighboring state. I started out with a bit less than a full charge and saw on the car map that the car expected me to arrive with 18% charge remaining. We have a Supercharger about 100 miles into the trip but the car did not change its estimate after 100 miles so we skipped the charger ... and arrived with 17% remaining. All my experiences thus far have been just as accurate. I don't bother to plan trips anymore, I just get in and drive and if the car tells me to stop for a charge, I do so. That has happened once since getting the car. It was a 15 minute charge, finished by the time we had gotten out for some stretching and bio breaks.

I'm sure exceptions exist, but normal people who have the sense to take occasional breaks from driving and sitting during long trips do not wait for the car for the first ~ 600 miles of driving a day. That is the Tesla experience in cars that have the Model 3 LR range or better.

*
As one example from my experience that has mostly been in NM:
I average 4.5 miles a kWh during highway driving at 67 mph and average 1.5 kWh a minute during a recharge at a Supercharger.
$0.22/(1.5*4.5) = 3.26 cents a mile to charge on the road.
 
SageBrush said:
GetOffYourGas said:
SageBrush said:
Yep if we are talking about EVs that are not Tesla, which is why I suspect the EA installed network will be a white elephant.

Well, based on your assumptions (that the majority is fuel agnostic, and only cares about convenience), that's the logical conclusion. But the same can be said for Tesla, since a gas car will be much more convenient than a Tesla for road trips in the foreseeable future.

I just disagree with your assumption, based in part on Tesla's success.
Convenience and Fuel cost.

You are right that the first x miles of battery is from the origin but Americans do not think that way when calculating fuel costs. With no small amount of difficulty they figure out the marginal cost per mile. Tesla Model 3 owners know they charge at ~ 3 cents a mile * away from home (varies by state, etc.) Non Tesla cars using the EA network will figure out that it costs them over 10 - 13 cents a mile. The Tesla success is built on large batteries, long range, and fast, convenient and cheap charging. Non Teslas on the EA network share exactly none of those attributes.

A future CCS car that covers 300+ miles of highway driving and actually charges at 150 kW could replicate the Tesla success if the charging network was Tesla like in its distribution, availability and reliability. For now and the for-seeable future the EA network is still-born.

A Tesla is remarkably convenient to drive away from home. I think you have to own one to really appreciate how advanced they are over the 'competition.' E.g., my wife and I just drove ~ 250 miles this morning to our home in the neighboring state. I started out with a bit less than a full charge and saw on the car map that the car expected me to arrive with 18% charge remaining. We have a Supercharger about 100 miles into the trip but the car did not change its estimate after 100 miles so we skipped the charger ... and arrived with 17% remaining. All my experiences thus far have been just as accurate. I don't bother to plan trips anymore, I just get in and drive and if the car tells me to stop for a charge, I do so. That has happened once since getting the car. It was a 15 minute charge, finished by the time we had gotten out for some stretching and bio breaks.

I'm sure exceptions exist, but normal people who have the sense to take occasional breaks from driving and sitting during long trips do not wait for the car for the first ~ 600 miles of driving a day. That is the Tesla experience in cars that have the Model 3 LR range or better.

*
As one example from my experience that has mostly been in NM:
I average 4.5 miles a kWh during highway driving at 67 mph and average 1.5 kWh a minute during a recharge at a Supercharger.
$0.22/(1.5*4.5) = 3.26 cents a mile to charge on the road.

Thanks. That was extremely helpful. Compare that to my recent 600-mile drive in a non-Tesla vehicle where there was only one Level 2--and that was only available because Tesla installed it. ;)

That charge, BTW, cost us $425 (Westin Monache Resort), about the cost of a gasser for the trip. But the valet did plug the car in as promised and it did charge.

Paul


Paul
 
paulgipe said:
That charge, BTW, cost us $425 (Westin Monache Resort), about the cost of a gasser for the trip. But the valet did plug the car in as promised and it did charge.
Ouch.

I haven't used public destination chargers yet but they also tend to live at hotels for Tesla. One upside is that my Model 3 LR can accept up to 48 Amps L2 charging which works out to ~ 45 miles an hour so a two hour stop would probably be enough to reach a Supercharger even in underserved areas. That kind of time window could be served by a visit to the hotel restaurant instead of an overnight stay and would be much less expensive.

At this stage of the Supercharger network (let alone with future expansion) I may never use a public destination L2 charger without other reasons to be there but I appreciate it being present as a plan 'B'
 
SageBrush said:
GetOffYourGas said:
SageBrush said:
Yep if we are talking about EVs that are not Tesla, which is why I suspect the EA installed network will be a white elephant.

Well, based on your assumptions (that the majority is fuel agnostic, and only cares about convenience), that's the logical conclusion. But the same can be said for Tesla, since a gas car will be much more convenient than a Tesla for road trips in the foreseeable future.

I just disagree with your assumption, based in part on Tesla's success.
Convenience and Fuel cost.

You are right that the first x miles of battery is from the origin but Americans do not think that way when calculating fuel costs. With no small amount of difficulty they figure out the marginal cost per mile. Tesla Model 3 owners know they charge at ~ 3 cents a mile * away from home (varies by state, etc.) Non Tesla cars using the EA network will figure out that it costs them over 10 - 13 cents a mile. The Tesla success is built on large batteries, long range, and fast, convenient and cheap charging. Non Teslas on the EA network share exactly none of those attributes.

A future CCS car that covers 300+ miles of highway driving and actually charges at 150 kW could replicate the Tesla success if the charging network was Tesla like in its distribution, availability and reliability. For now and the for-seeable future the EA network is still-born.<snip>
There will be at least two non-Tesla BEVs this year (i-Pace and e-Tron Quattro) that will have large batteries and long range, with more to come; the only thing they lack is cheap (non-profit) charging. EA's highway network will have 4-10 QCs per site, with at least 150kW per CCS connector and some going up to 350kW (not that any current or soon to arrive [Taycan] BEV can go over 280kW).
 
GRA said:
There will be at least two non-Tesla BEVs this year (i-Pace and e-Tron Quattro) that will have large batteries and long range, with more to come; the only thing they lack is cheap (non-profit) charging. EA's highway network will have 4-10 QCs per site, with at least 150kW per CCS connector and some going up to 350kW (not that any current or soon to arrive [Taycan] BEV can go over 280kW).

FF91 can take it and will be available Q1 2019.
 
SageBrush said:
paulgipe said:
That charge, BTW, cost us $425 (Westin Monache Resort), about the cost of a gasser for the trip. But the valet did plug the car in as promised and it did charge.
Ouch.

I haven't used public destination chargers yet but they also tend to live at hotels for Tesla. One upside is that my Model 3 LR can accept up to 48 Amps L2 charging which works out to ~ 45 miles an hour so a two hour stop would probably be enough to reach a Supercharger even in underserved areas. That kind of time window could be served by a visit to the hotel restaurant instead of an overnight stay and would be much less expensive.

At this stage of the Supercharger network (let alone with future expansion) I may never use a public destination L2 charger but I appreciate it being present as a plan 'B'

Yes, I checked with the Valets and the day manager. They would valet charge the car for a lunch or dinner meal. In my case a two-hour meal stop would not have been enough. I prefer these in-person conversations rather than just telephoning. I had an unfortunate experience in LA at an expensive hotel where the valets did not charge my car even though the hotel promised they would. That article is on this forum somewhere. It is also on my web site. Trust but verify is my mantra now. ;)

I am going to judge the availability and the reliability of the EA, CP, EV Connect, and EVgo networks when this round of projects is complete. For the moment, nothing beats the availability and reportedly reliability of the Tesla network. We don't have a Tesla, "but I know people who do."

Paul
 
The CCS network is improving at a snails pace and the pricing is sure to be a barrier to widespread use.
As for cars, I'm not holding my breath. E.g. the much hyped by media for hire i-Pace from Jag gets "up to 240 miles range" on the European WLTP. Anyone care to guess what that will be at normative USA driving speeds ? It *starts* at $70k and is currently outfitted with a 50 kW DC fast charging capability. The per mile consumption at travel speeds will be at least ~ 1.6x that of the Model 3, so the travel speed will equate to 32 kW DC fast charging or about 1/4 that of the Model 3.

Meh. Double Meh. Triple Meh
It ends up being a local car for the mink coat crowd.
 
Evoforce said:
The I-pace is lacking in charging speed, charging infrastructure, range and efficiency compared to Tesla. The other car mentioned, I do not have the facts to compare.
100kW charging for the i-Pace, at least initially. High-rate QC infrastructure is of course lacking compared to Tesla now, just as the Model S lacked high-rate charging infrastructure when it was introduced six years ago - that's what EA is going to provide. Range is down compared to the Model S85-100 or 3LR but comparable to the S/X 75D and better than the 3SR. Efficiency is undoubtedly less, surprisingly so (15kWh extra for the same range as the S/X 75D), but ride/handling are better judging by reviews, as is much of the driver interface, and it doesn't have gimmicky doors that rpevent the roof from being used for loads; in fact it's been getting rave reviews similar to those for the S when that was introduced.

The e-Tron Quattro is going to be the first vehicle that will allow 150kW CCS charging. 95kWh usable, so they claim, and again efficiency is less but range is similar to the smaller battery S/X etc.
 
SageBrush said:
The CCS network is improving at a snails pace and the pricing is sure to be a barrier to widespread use.
As for cars, I'm not holding my breath. E.g. the much hyped by media for hire i-Pace from Jag gets "up to 240 miles range" on the European WLTP. Anyone care to guess what that will be at normative USA driving speeds ? It *starts* at $70k and is currently outfitted with a 50 kW DC fast charging capability. The per mile consumption at travel speeds will be at least ~ 1.6x that of the Model 3, so the travel speed will equate to 32 kW DC fast charging or about 1/4 that of the Model 3.

Meh. Double Meh. Triple Meh
It ends up being a local car for the mink coat crowd.
The CCS network WAS improving at a snail's pace, but that's no longer the case, as EA must build the stations on time or be penalized.

Which reminds me, EA has opened the Breaux Bridge, LA QC, #10. That gives them two along I-10 east of Houston (Gulfport, MS is the other) with 5 others 'coming soon', so that's moving along nicely. Breaux Bridge is 224 miles east of Houston so maybe reachable, although there's another QC on the 'Coming soon' list (currently #15) between those two points in Sulphur, LA. (135 miles from Houston), which should eliminate any worries about not making it. Gulfport is 180 miles from B.B.

As for U.S. range, Jaguar is saying about 240 EPA (WLTP is 298; some earlier EPA estimates were 220), and one journalist managed 291 in the U.K. with constraints:
Here’s How Far The Jaguar I-Pace Can Go On Single Charge
https://insideevs.com/heres-how-far-the-jaguar-i-pace-can-go-on-single-charge/

As for being a local car for the mink coat crowd, so was the Model S when it was introduced sans any SCs. To quote Don Ameche, "Things-a change." Its range is certainly less than desirable for road trips, but then there's people like dgpcolorado who are taking long trips in degraded S60s, so the range is obviously acceptable to some (not me) given an adequate high-rate QC infrastructure.
 
palmermd said:
GRA said:
There will be at least two non-Tesla BEVs this year (i-Pace and e-Tron Quattro) that will have large batteries and long range, with more to come; the only thing they lack is cheap (non-profit) charging. EA's highway network will have 4-10 QCs per site, with at least 150kW per CCS connector and some going up to 350kW (not that any current or soon to arrive [Taycan] BEV can go over 280kW).

FF91 can take it and will be available Q1 2019.
Which assumes that Faraday Future will have a real product available at some point. To date there's little reason to count on that.
 
GRA said:
palmermd said:
GRA said:
There will be at least two non-Tesla BEVs this year (i-Pace and e-Tron Quattro) that will have large batteries and long range, with more to come; the only thing they lack is cheap (non-profit) charging. EA's highway network will have 4-10 QCs per site, with at least 150kW per CCS connector and some going up to 350kW (not that any current or soon to arrive [Taycan] BEV can go over 280kW).

FF91 can take it and will be available Q1 2019.
Which assumes that Faraday Future will have a real product available at some point. To date there's little reason to count on that.

Don't be fooled by all the negative media surrounding evs. They are building cars as we speak.
 
palmermd said:
GRA said:
palmermd said:
FF91 can take it and will be available Q1 2019.
Which assumes that Faraday Future will have a real product available at some point. To date there's little reason to count on that.
Don't be fooled by all the negative media surrounding evs. They are building cars as we speak.
FF's history doesn't inspire confidence. If they produce, great, but I'm not holding my breath until they're a lot closer to putting cars on sale.
 
I watched a Bjorn Nyland Video driving the i-Pace on a consumption test. He was hoping that the consumption meter display in the car was wrong so he did a ~ 50 Km distance and SoC calculation instead.
Speeds between 80 - 90 KPH (50 - 56 MPH),

45 kW charging before test to bring SoC up to 75%
210 miles range
Somewhere in the range of 370 - 390 Wh/mile consumption.
Roads were damp (but no rain) ~ 50% of the test

As Bjorn says, fingers are crossed that Jag has some software magic in the pipeline because its current state is pitiful.
For comparison, I drove my Model 3 LR this morning ~ 265 miles at ~ 106 KPH (65 MPH) most of the way at 206 Wh/mile overall, zero net elevation change and without Aero wheel covers. No charging stop needed. Yet another "Tesla Killer" that is anything but.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8MqUL2YF2w
 
palmermd said:
GRA said:
palmermd said:
FF91 can take it and will be available Q1 2019.
Which assumes that Faraday Future will have a real product available at some point. To date there's little reason to count on that.

Don't be fooled by all the negative media surrounding evs. They are building cars as we speak.
As of 8/28/2018 FF has finished building ONE pre-production car.

One car. Entirely hand assembled -- watch the video. The 'assembly line' is 5 people carrying parts to a chassis on a dolly in an empty warehouse. From that to mass production in Q1 2019 is a joke. The only way I see FF not dying on the vine is to be bought by a legacy. I presume that is their business case all along since nothing else makes sense.
 
EA has seemingly revised their numbers, having snuck Colby, KS in at #10, which makes Breaux Bridge, LA #11 and Ooltewah, TN #12. Like Huntington, OR, Colby is out all by its lonesome for now, although Hays and Topeka, KS are on the 'coming soon' list.
 
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