2016 30 kWh Battery data

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johnlocke said:
WetEV said:
johnlocke said:
jury is still out on what the update does other than change the numbers that LeafSpy reports.

It seems pretty clear that the only thing the update does is change the numbers that LeafSpy reports, and that determine how many capacity bars to show.

The important question is: Is the new firmware more accurate than the old firmware?

Capacity estimation is a hard subject, there are some good papers on the difficulties, but they all seem to be behind paywalls. This is why most EV makers hide any capacity estimates from the user. Nissan is more open on this topic, and is due credit for being so.
If the firmware update changes the AH values then we should expect to see more GID's then before the update and an increase in range. People have reported the change in AH but so far I haven't seen any reports of higher GID's values or any increase in range. If the range doesn't change after the upgrade then Nissan is just jerking us around and trying to avoid warranty claims. If the car shows 12 bars but only gets 65-70 miles to a charge then the only thing Nissan fixed is their warranty issue not the battery. I can't make that comparison since I had the battery changed and the update done at the same time. We need owners who were down 2-3 bars and are now back up to 12 bars to report their GID's value at full charge from both before and after the update and if they have noticed any increase in overall range since the update.

We seem to be getting different stories here. The results of the update seems to fall into 2 broad categories.

1) User can't tell if range has changed mostly because their normal usage is well below the full charge range of the car both before and after the update

2) People who claim they have more range due to restored bars that likely boosted their confidence to drive farther.


Now there is also a smaller category of people who have simply lost trust in the car and won't challenge the range opting to gas it for trips longer than the shorter local distances.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
johnlocke said:
WetEV said:
It seems pretty clear that the only thing the update does is change the numbers that LeafSpy reports, and that determine how many capacity bars to show.

The important question is: Is the new firmware more accurate than the old firmware?

Capacity estimation is a hard subject, there are some good papers on the difficulties, but they all seem to be behind paywalls. This is why most EV makers hide any capacity estimates from the user. Nissan is more open on this topic, and is due credit for being so.
If the firmware update changes the AH values then we should expect to see more GID's then before the update and an increase in range. People have reported the change in AH but so far I haven't seen any reports of higher GID's values or any increase in range. If the range doesn't change after the upgrade then Nissan is just jerking us around and trying to avoid warranty claims. If the car shows 12 bars but only gets 65-70 miles to a charge then the only thing Nissan fixed is their warranty issue not the battery. I can't make that comparison since I had the battery changed and the update done at the same time. We need owners who were down 2-3 bars and are now back up to 12 bars to report their GID's value at full charge from both before and after the update and if they have noticed any increase in overall range since the update.

We seem to be getting different stories here. The results of the update seems to fall into 2 broad categories.

1) User can't tell if range has changed mostly because their normal usage is well below the full charge range of the car both before and after the update

2) People who claim they have more range due to restored bars that likely boosted their confidence to drive farther.


Now there is also a smaller category of people who have simply lost trust in the car and won't challenge the range opting to gas it for trips longer than the shorter local distances.
Most people drive the same route 5 days a week. They use about the same percentage of their charge each time. If the battery has improved then they should use a lower percentage of charge now then they used to. I.E if their commute is 55 miles round trip and they get 3.8mi/KWH and their battery was at 75% SOH then they ought to use about 66% of the battery's capacity and show 33% on the dash gauge after the trip. if the battery improves to 85% SOH then we would expect the dash gauge to read about 42% after the same trip. Even for shorter commutes the effect should be noticeable. For a 38 mi round trip the numbers would be 53% before and 59% after. I'm willing to bet everyone can tell me what percent of charge they had left after their daily commute before the update. I simply want to know if the percent of charge left after their daily commute has changed.
 
johnlocke said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
johnlocke said:
If the firmware update changes the AH values then we should expect to see more GID's then before the update and an increase in range. People have reported the change in AH but so far I haven't seen any reports of higher GID's values or any increase in range. If the range doesn't change after the upgrade then Nissan is just jerking us around and trying to avoid warranty claims. If the car shows 12 bars but only gets 65-70 miles to a charge then the only thing Nissan fixed is their warranty issue not the battery. I can't make that comparison since I had the battery changed and the update done at the same time. We need owners who were down 2-3 bars and are now back up to 12 bars to report their GID's value at full charge from both before and after the update and if they have noticed any increase in overall range since the update.

We seem to be getting different stories here. The results of the update seems to fall into 2 broad categories.

1) User can't tell if range has changed mostly because their normal usage is well below the full charge range of the car both before and after the update

2) People who claim they have more range due to restored bars that likely boosted their confidence to drive farther.


Now there is also a smaller category of people who have simply lost trust in the car and won't challenge the range opting to gas it for trips longer than the shorter local distances.
Most people drive the same route 5 days a week. They use about the same percentage of their charge each time. If the battery has improved then they should use a lower percentage of charge now then they used to. I.E if their commute is 55 miles round trip and they get 3.8mi/KWH and their battery was at 75% SOH then they ought to use about 66% of the battery's capacity and show 33% on the dash gauge after the trip. if the battery improves to 85% SOH then we would expect the dash gauge to read about 42% after the same trip. Even for shorter commutes the effect should be noticeable. For a 38 mi round trip the numbers would be 53% before and 59% after. I'm willing to bet everyone can tell me what percent of charge they had left after their daily commute before the update. I simply want to know if the percent of charge left after their daily commute has changed.

So in our case we can clearly tell that our range is longer, both on our daily commute during the week and our regular, longer distance weekend routine. This is all based on the GOM. We do not have Leaf spy.
 
johnlocke said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
johnlocke said:
If the firmware update changes the AH values then we should expect to see more GID's then before the update and an increase in range. People have reported the change in AH but so far I haven't seen any reports of higher GID's values or any increase in range. If the range doesn't change after the upgrade then Nissan is just jerking us around and trying to avoid warranty claims. If the car shows 12 bars but only gets 65-70 miles to a charge then the only thing Nissan fixed is their warranty issue not the battery. I can't make that comparison since I had the battery changed and the update done at the same time. We need owners who were down 2-3 bars and are now back up to 12 bars to report their GID's value at full charge from both before and after the update and if they have noticed any increase in overall range since the update.

We seem to be getting different stories here. The results of the update seems to fall into 2 broad categories.

1) User can't tell if range has changed mostly because their normal usage is well below the full charge range of the car both before and after the update

2) People who claim they have more range due to restored bars that likely boosted their confidence to drive farther.


Now there is also a smaller category of people who have simply lost trust in the car and won't challenge the range opting to gas it for trips longer than the shorter local distances.
Most people drive the same route 5 days a week. They use about the same percentage of their charge each time. If the battery has improved then they should use a lower percentage of charge now then they used to. I.E if their commute is 55 miles round trip and they get 3.8mi/KWH and their battery was at 75% SOH then they ought to use about 66% of the battery's capacity and show 33% on the dash gauge after the trip. if the battery improves to 85% SOH then we would expect the dash gauge to read about 42% after the same trip. Even for shorter commutes the effect should be noticeable. For a 38 mi round trip the numbers would be 53% before and 59% after. I'm willing to bet everyone can tell me what percent of charge they had left after their daily commute before the update. I simply want to know if the percent of charge left after their daily commute has changed.

Except that variations in temperature and traffic speeds alone can easily vary the remaining SOC by almost 10% over a 45-mile roundtrip. Someone would have to be meticulous in their records so that they can compare a weeks worth of differences instead of just daily. Just saying that it's not that cut-and-dry.
 
Agreed. Most people only have general impressions of their range. I have a better picture of mine simply because I record my performance every day and the numbers vary very widely from day to day.

Problem with me is traffic and its infinite variances. I generally just follow along to get where I need to go and its anywhere from minimal delays to very long ones. This includes my commute which is 23.1 miles per day round trip (this is the EXACT mileage on trip meter nearly all the time)
 
This is the most conclusive report i have see regarding the update.

https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-nissan-leaf-firmware-update-to-correct-capacity-reporting/

If you read through you will see that the update does not change the total capacity, just how it is reported. This is also my experience. Before the update you could get down to very low battery warning and you still had quite a few miles to go. After the update when it gets to vlbw you had better be looking for a charge.

And yes after the update the GIDs reported changed proportionally to the increase in Ahr.

As of 9/8/2018 I am at 63.92 AHr 80.42% SOH 55.98% Hx 292 GIDs. Down 1 bar.
 
It's the 1st of Oct. and I'm just over 50K on the car and 5K on the new battery. 79.15 AH, SOH =99.59% Hx = 91.80% 362 GID's. I've lost 3 AH off the peak value but since GID's is limited by software to 363 GID's max and the battery is still over 79 AH there's no noticeable loss of range. The battery does seem to be following the same pattern as the old one. I'm still hoping the new firmware will change the degradation curve but it's still too early to tell if that's going to be the case. I've just gone through a hot summer so we'll see how the battery does in cooler weather. I'd like to see the battery last for at least 80K more mi. If the software fix is real then that should be the case. If not. then it would be nice to have it poop out by 90-95K so I can get that third battery under warranty. Worst case is the battery craps out just after I hit 100K and I have to trade it in for next to nothing and buy something else (probably not a Nissan). I usually put more than 150K and closer to 200K before buying a new car. If I can only get 5 1/2 or 6 yrs out of the car, that will be extremely disappointing to me. I'd like to have at least a couple of years without a car payment.
 
This is my final post concerning my 2016 30kWh Leaf. I am now the proud owner of a Tesla Model 3. It is more than a no compromise electric car, by far the finest car I have ever owned.

As of 9/28/2018 when I traded it in the battery was at 63.39 Ahr 79.76 SOH 25435 mi 290 GID. Range to LBW 76 mi.

List price with dealer add-ons was almost $40,000 less 10,000 discount and 7,500 tax rebate for a net cost of 22,500. I received 14,000 trade in for a total cost of ownership of $8,500 or $405 a month. Electricity costs of $445. I figure gas would have cost $2100. My net cost ending up about $300 a month considering the gas savings.

I have to say I really like the way the Leaf drives. It is a great commuter car. Not going to miss the limited range. If the 40kWh batteries are holding up I might consider a used one for a replacement for our Prius in a few years....
 
Oct update. I now have about 7000 mi on the new battery after 4 1/2 months. I'm showing the first signs of detirioration already. Stats as of Nov 1.

359 GID's, AH=78.47, SOH=98.73% Hx=90.30%. 51819 mi (6890 mi. on new bat.). 120 L3 (6 on new bat.), 1005 L2 (131on new bat.),

Going by AH, I'm down by 4.5% from new. GID's value didn't budge for the first 3 months and is now dropping. Annual loss is estimated at 11% at the current rate. I'm still expecting the loss to slow over the winter but time will tell. At the current rate, the battery will just miss the 100K warranty. So maybe 60k before the fourth bar drops on the new battery. If the detirioration slows in the winter, then maybe 70-75K before the fourth bar drops. I certainly wouldn't expect much better than that.
 
First bar gone after update:

11/2/18 Charging 20% to 100%, ODO 15,799, reset Trip B) 94.2 (since last charge)

SOH=83.37 AR=67.06 GIDS=16 (SGids=306 EGids=206)
HX=62.84 (59-degrees outside)
L1/2 430 QC 18
6/26/18 reprogramed battery controller ODO 13,518

Crossposted to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606&p=489306#p489306

-J.Tim
 
This software (293A0: -4NP4A, -4NP4B, -4NP5A, -4NP5B, (-4NR4A)) needs to be updated, it does not work correctly!
 
Dec update. 355 GID's, 77.55AH, SOH 97.57%, Hx 87.98%, 53309 mi (8380 mi on new battery) 122 (8) L3, 1033 (159) L2. After 5 1/2 months the battery has lost almost 6% capacity according to reported AH readings. Same for SOH. So far it appears to be tracking right along side the old battery. Software update hasn't made any difference as far as I can see.
 
Jan 1 2019 Update. There was essentially no change in capacity last month. 355 GID's , 77.61AH, SOH = 97.65%, Hx= 88.14% 9928 mi , 9 L3 charges and 188 L2 charges on the new battery. Looking back at my records that seems to be normal for this time of year. Gee, the battery does well as long as the daytime high is less than 80 degrees. December through March periods show little loss compared to July through October periods.
 
Feb 1 2019 Update. There was essentially no change in capacity from last month. 354 GID's , 77.56AH, SOH = 97.58%, Hx= 88.00% 11330 mi , 10 L3 charges and 217 L2 charges on the new battery. Looking back at my records that seems to be normal for this time of year. The battery continues to do well as long as the weather stays cool. The December through March periods show low losses compared to July through October periods. This battery seems to be doing better at this point then the old one. I don't know whether this is due to a better battery or the software update. The real test will be this summer when the temps hit 100+ again. If the battery doesn't lose a lot of capacity over the summer, then perhaps Nissan actually fixed something.
 
March update. 351 GID's , AH=76.68, SOH=96.48%, Hx=85.78%. 57,697 total mi, 12768 mi on new battery. 244 L2 and 11 L3 on new battery. 1118 total L2,125 total L3. Cool weather favors the battery and degradation is minimal. March and April will likely show the same effects. The real tests will be July, August, and September. If the battery survives the summer with minimal losses then perhaps Nissan has indeed fixed the problem. At this point I have 8 1/2 months on the new battery and It is performing slightly better than the original battery over the same time period. Unfortunately the two batteries are 180 degrees out of sync in regards to the seasons so the comparison isn't exact.
 
April update. 348 GID's 76.08AH SOH=95.72% Hx=84.27% 59185 total mi. 14256 mi on new battery. 13 DCFC and 272 l2 charges on the new battery. The new battery continues to do better than the old one but we are still in the cool weather portion of the year. The next six months should show the truth of whether the software update and/or new battery are really are the improvement Nissan claims it is. At the current rate of deterioration, this battery should last at least 4-5 years before it no longer fits my needs. That would put me at 130K-150K miles before I junk it. I suppose the battery might be worth a couple of grand at that point as part of a solar backup system or TOU power shifter.
 
JTim said:
First bar gone after update:

11/2/18 Charging 20% to 100%, ODO 15,799, reset Trip B) 94.2 (since last charge)

SOH=83.37 AR=67.06 GIDS=16 (SGids=306 EGids=206)
HX=62.84 (59-degrees outside)
L1/2 430 QC 18
6/26/18 reprogramed battery controller ODO 13,518

Crossposted to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606&p=489306#p489306

-J.Tim

5/2/19, back to 10 bars after reprogramming (6/26/18)

ODO= 19,557
SOH=82.94
GIDs=196
Ar=65.953
Hx=60.58

-J.Tim
 
May update. 345 GID's 75.58AH SOH=95.09% Hx=83.01% 60627 total mi. 15708 mi on new battery. 15 DCFC and 299 l2 charges on the new battery. The new battery continues to do better than the old one but weather is just starting to warm up. By amp hours the battery is down about 9% but by the GIDs values I've only lost about 5%. I'm beginning to believe that either the software update really worked or that the new battery is much better than the original one. The old battery was down 12% after 10 months as compared to 5% for the new one, That is still too rapid with a projected loss of 40% or more over 8 years. It would leave me at about 70-75% in 5 more years at 150K mi. My best guess is that I will still have close to 80% left as I cross the 100K mark so a third battery is not likely. It does give me 2-3 years to look for a replacement car.
 
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