Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

GRA said:

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

Me too. And with the app, you can pre-heat/pre-cool so the "blast of air" that you get in the beginning isn't an issue anymore.

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I detest ACC, as it always, at least in my car, starts up at max heat or cool, when all I typically want is fresh air blowing on me lightly, or some heat at floor level. I have to turn ACC off every time I restart the car and change a setting.

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You sound like my parents, who complain about how things don't work the way they expected it to. ACC is not auto. And as I told Ipickup, with pre-heat/cool, you don't have to get that blast as your car's interior is conditioned already by the time you open the car door. I don't know what you're doing, but the only reason that ACC is on when you start the car, is because you had it on AUTO when you turned off the car.

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Nope, not the way it works in my car (which is not a Tesla, mind). Every time the car is restarted, the first time I make any adjustment to temp, fan or direction, ACC kicks on and has to be turned off manually, whereupon I can then use it in manual mode. Subaru changed this a few years later, presumably due to complaints from myself and others, so that eliminated that issue. I still don't care for ACC - I'm not trying to establish a temp for the entire cabin which is what most ACCs try to do, as that's wasteful of energy (most of the time I'm the only person in it), I just want air blowing on me. I really like that some PEVs offer driver-only HVAC zones for that reason, but I still want manual control of where that air is going, how strong it is and what temp. People who want and expect the whole interior to be climate-controlled to a specific temp will be happy with ACC; I'm not.

It just depends on your preferences. I have no problem with a car that has ACC, provided I can turn it off (easily, and preferably as a default) and have full control. I also prefer driving a manual transmission, when the vast majority of U.S. drivers are content with automatics - indeed, giving up shifting will be my greatest regret when I finally go to an EV, so I'll want lots of regen levels under my direct control, instantly selectable with physical controls I don't have to look for/at (no touchscreens or menus).

GRA said:

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

GRA said:

I detest ACC, as it always, at least in my car, starts up at max heat or cool, when all I typically want is fresh air blowing on me lightly, or some heat at floor level. I have to turn ACC off every time I restart the car and change a setting.

Click to expand...

You sound like my parents, who complain about how things don't work the way they expected it to. ACC is not auto. And as I told Ipickup, with pre-heat/cool, you don't have to get that blast as your car's interior is conditioned already by the time you open the car door. I don't know what you're doing, but the only reason that ACC is on when you start the car, is because you had it on AUTO when you turned off the car.

Click to expand...

Nope, not the way it works in my car (which is not a Tesla, mind). Every time the car is restarted, the first time I make any adjustment to temp, fan or direction, ACC kicks on and has to be turned off manually, whereupon I can then use it in manual mode. Subaru changed this a few years later, presumably due to complaints from myself and others, so that eliminated that issue. I still don't care for ACC - I'm not trying to establish a temp for the entire cabin which is what most ACCs try to do, as that's wasteful of energy (most of the time I'm the only person in it), I just want air blowing on me. I really like that some PEVs offer driver-only HVAC zones for that reason, but I still want manual control of where that air is going, how strong it is and what temp. People who want and expect the whole interior to be climate-controlled to a specific temp will be happy with ACC; I'm not. It just depends on your preferences. I have no problem with a car that has ACC, provided I can turn it off (easily, and preferably as a default) and have full control.

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Now you're off-topic.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

GRA said:

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

You sound like my parents, who complain about how things don't work the way they expected it to. ACC is not auto. And as I told Ipickup, with pre-heat/cool, you don't have to get that blast as your car's interior is conditioned already by the time you open the car door. I don't know what you're doing, but the only reason that ACC is on when you start the car, is because you had it on AUTO when you turned off the car.

Click to expand...

Nope, not the way it works in my car (which is not a Tesla, mind). Every time the car is restarted, the first time I make any adjustment to temp, fan or direction, ACC kicks on and has to be turned off manually, whereupon I can then use it in manual mode. Subaru changed this a few years later, presumably due to complaints from myself and others, so that eliminated that issue. I still don't care for ACC - I'm not trying to establish a temp for the entire cabin which is what most ACCs try to do, as that's wasteful of energy (most of the time I'm the only person in it), I just want air blowing on me. I really like that some PEVs offer driver-only HVAC zones for that reason, but I still want manual control of where that air is going, how strong it is and what temp. People who want and expect the whole interior to be climate-controlled to a specific temp will be happy with ACC; I'm not. It just depends on your preferences. I have no problem with a car that has ACC, provided I can turn it off (easily, and preferably as a default) and have full control.

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Now you're off-topic.

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Topic drift is a fact of life, but the topic is whether or not people who dislike touchscreen controls (while operating vehicles or doing any activity that requires concentration) can be convinced otherwise, and I'm giving examples of why that is unlikely to be the case. There are some car-related actions that can unquestionably be done better by automation than by humans, and I'm perfectly happy to let them do so - setting ignition timing, ABS, etc. being examples.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

Now you're off-topic.

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Let me bring it right back then...

GRA said:

I also prefer driving a manual transmission, when the vast majority of U.S. drivers are content with automatics - indeed, giving up shifting will be my greatest regret when I finally go to an EV, so I'll want lots of regen levels under my direct control, instantly selectable with physical controls I don't have to look for/at (no touchscreens or menus).

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When you are not in TACC (traffic aware cruise control) mode in the Model 3, the right steering wheel thumb wheel (to the best of my knowledge anyway) is not assigned a function.

I think it would be fantastic if it would take on the function of adjusting the regenerative braking level.

Unfortunately, it seems like most people don't agree with me, thinking that nobody should like anything but the very strongest regen at all times...

lpickup said:

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

Now you're off-topic.

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Let me bring it right back then...

GRA said:

I also prefer driving a manual transmission, when the vast majority of U.S. drivers are content with automatics - indeed, giving up shifting will be my greatest regret when I finally go to an EV, so I'll want lots of regen levels under my direct control, instantly selectable with physical controls I don't have to look for/at (no touchscreens or menus).

Click to expand...

When you are not in TACC (traffic aware cruise control) mode in the Model 3, the right steering wheel thumb wheel (to the best of my knowledge anyway) is not assigned a function.

I think it would be fantastic if it would take on the function of adjusting the regenerative braking level.

Unfortunately, it seems like most people don't agree with me, thinking that nobody should like anything but the very strongest regen at all times...

Click to expand...

I'm a fan of paddles, one each side of the wheel to increase/decrease regen, respectively. Always within reach of my hands while they're on the wheel, no need to move them or look to locate the paddles, single purpose controls so no need to spend any mental cycles wondering "what will this control do in the mode I'm currently in, and am I IN the mode I think I am"? The number of aviation accidents that have been caused by multi-function controls (despite being operated by far more highly-trained humans than is the case with the typical driver) is quite large. I also like GM's approach, D/L plus paddle.

lpickup said:

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

Now you're off-topic.

Click to expand...

Let me bring it right back then...

GRA said:

I also prefer driving a manual transmission, when the vast majority of U.S. drivers are content with automatics - indeed, giving up shifting will be my greatest regret when I finally go to an EV, so I'll want lots of regen levels under my direct control, instantly selectable with physical controls I don't have to look for/at (no touchscreens or menus).

Click to expand...

When you are not in TACC (traffic aware cruise control) mode in the Model 3, the right steering wheel thumb wheel (to the best of my knowledge anyway) is not assigned a function.

I think it would be fantastic if it would take on the function of adjusting the regenerative braking level.

Unfortunately, it seems like most people don't agree with me, thinking that nobody should like anything but the very strongest regen at all times...

Click to expand...

That's an interesting idea. But since regen only has 2 modes, I think assigning it to a toggle switch on the stalk might make more sense so people don't accidentally adjust the following distance when they forget that they're in TACC.

I'm in the boat that prefers full regen and no toggle.

It’s pointless to discuss why any Tesla does not have the issue other cars have to non- Tesla owners. They will compare it to other cars that are irrelevant or make determinations based on zero experience with the vehicle. Of course I can bitch about AC on my other car and all the useless knobs I don’t need on my Tesla but that does not matter becase I need to hear about someone’s relatives ICE car functions as arguments against a car they don’t own. Entertaining and pointless at the same time.

EVDRIVER said:

It’s pointless to discuss why any Tesla does not have the issue other cars have to non- Tesla owners. They will compare it to other cars that are irrelevant or make determinations based on zero experience with the vehicle. Of course I can bitch about AC on my other car and all the useless knobs I don’t need on my Tesla but that does not matter becase I need to hear about someone’s relatives ICE car functions as arguments against a car they don’t own. Entertaining and pointless at the same time.

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+1

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

That's an interesting idea. But since regen only has 2 modes, I think assigning it to a toggle switch on the stalk might make more sense so people don't accidentally adjust the following distance when they forget that they're in TACC.

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So I think that is very constrained thinking. Unless there is some kind of hardware limitation that only allows for 2 modes, it seems to me that the 2 regen modes is only a software artifact and that it would be possible to have a continuum of different regen levels. So I was thinking more along the lines of the thumb wheel itself as the controller, not the left/right click. So in that case, your concern would be people adjusting their speed (not following distance) when in TACC mode. If there is some kind of hardware limitation to 2 regen levels, then yes, the left/right thumb controller would make more sense. As for accidentally changing the following distance in that case, I barely notice the difference as it is, so not sure how much of a safety concern this is (I think it would be discovered pretty quickly).

Guy, you effectively raised the same concern. And particularly in the case of the first option (having it assigned to the wheel itself) where the alternate function is the cruise control speed, I think the concern is greater, at least in the case of a rapid slow down, as the car does tend to slow itself down pretty quickly if you adjust the cruise speed down. It's a little more gentle on the speed up side, and since it's traffic aware, it's not like it's going to plow into the car ahead of you. But still it's a valid concern. However, I'm pretty certain it doesn't rise to the level of a critical, dangerous situation, particularly if the down direction means more regen. In this case, the driver intends for the car to slow down more rapidly, and this is going to be the end result whether it's in TACC mode or not. Besides, I don't think the mental gymnastics are too overwhelming. When I'm in TACC mode I am simply not thinking about regen. The car is already doing all the work. And when I'm not in TACC mode, I'm definitely aware that I'm controlling the speed and not the thumbwheel. I have a harder time remembering whether the voice command is triggered by pressing the left or right wheel.

lpickup said:

Guy, you effectively raised the same concern. And particularly in the case of the first option (having it assigned to the wheel itself) where the alternate function is the cruise control speed, I think the concern is greater, at least in the case of a rapid slow down, as the car does tend to slow itself down pretty quickly if you adjust the cruise speed down. It's a little more gentle on the speed up side, and since it's traffic aware, it's not like it's going to plow into the car ahead of you. But still it's a valid concern. However, I'm pretty certain it doesn't rise to the level of a critical, dangerous situation, particularly if the down direction means more regen. In this case, the driver intends for the car to slow down more rapidly, and this is going to be the end result whether it's in TACC mode or not. Besides, I don't think the mental gymnastics are too overwhelming. When I'm in TACC mode I am simply not thinking about regen. The car is already doing all the work. And when I'm not in TACC mode, I'm definitely aware that I'm controlling the speed and not the thumbwheel. I have a harder time remembering whether the voice command is triggered by pressing the left or right wheel.

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For me personally, I've come to the conclusion that I simply won't use TACC on any car until such time as that particular model car has L4 autonomy, with the manufacturer accepting responsibility for any injuries/accidents resulting from the failure of those systems. The problem is TACC is currently in that in-between range of reliability where it works most of the time, which lulls people into a false sense of security and thus to trust it, without being reliable enough (six 9s minimum, with 7 or 8 preferred) for me to trust my safety to it. With normal CC I know that if I stop paying attention and don't take action I will rear end any car I overtake, so mental/physical disengagement from driving while using it is simply unthinkable (for me; obviously some people do so, with the inevitable result). I'd love to say that I'm one of the people who will be the exception to the rule when it comes to TACC, but I don't consider it justifiable to risk myself or others if I'm (almost inevitably) proven wrong: the research in this area that virtually everyone's susceptible to automation bias/complacency is overwhelming: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automation_bias#Automation_failure_and_"learned_carelessness"

:roll:

GRA said:

lpickup said:

Guy, you effectively raised the same concern. And particularly in the case of the first option (having it assigned to the wheel itself) where the alternate function is the cruise control speed, I think the concern is greater, at least in the case of a rapid slow down, as the car does tend to slow itself down pretty quickly if you adjust the cruise speed down. It's a little more gentle on the speed up side, and since it's traffic aware, it's not like it's going to plow into the car ahead of you. But still it's a valid concern. However, I'm pretty certain it doesn't rise to the level of a critical, dangerous situation, particularly if the down direction means more regen. In this case, the driver intends for the car to slow down more rapidly, and this is going to be the end result whether it's in TACC mode or not. Besides, I don't think the mental gymnastics are too overwhelming. When I'm in TACC mode I am simply not thinking about regen. The car is already doing all the work. And when I'm not in TACC mode, I'm definitely aware that I'm controlling the speed and not the thumbwheel. I have a harder time remembering whether the voice command is triggered by pressing the left or right wheel.

Click to expand...

For me personally, I've come to the conclusion that I simply won't use TACC on any car until such time as that particular model car has L4 autonomy, with the manufacturer accepting responsibility for any injuries/accidents resulting from the failure of those systems. The problem is TACC is currently in that in-between range of reliability where it works most of the time, which lulls people into a false sense of security and thus to trust it, without being reliable enough (six 9s minimum, with 7 or 8 preferred) for me to trust my safety to it. With normal CC I know that if I stop paying attention and don't take action I will rear end any car I overtake, so mental/physical disengagement from driving while using it is simply unthinkable (for me; obviously some people do so, with the inevitable result). I'd love to say that I'm one of the people who will be the exception to the rule when it comes to TACC, but I don't consider it justifiable to risk myself or others if I'm (almost inevitably) proven wrong: the research in this area that virtually everyone's susceptible to automation bias/complacency is overwhelming: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automation_bias#Automation_failure_and_"learned_carelessness"

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In case anyone else doesn't know, GRA doesn't own a Tesla, nor does s/he have any practical experience with one. The above is exhibit A of behavior that some consider trolling.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

In case anyone else doesn't know, GRA doesn't own a Tesla, nor does s/he have any practical experience with one. The above is exhibit A of behavior that some consider trolling.

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I disagree. Guy brings some good discussion to the table here. He's not just coming in and dissing Tesla for whatever reason he can find that will cause the stock price to drop. Hey may be more critical of Tesla than supportive, but he backs those opinions up with valid reasons. As Tesla fans and owners, we should never consider the cars flawless and perfect, because they are not. Tesla would do well to take well reasoned negative feedback into consideration to improve their products.

lpickup said:

Tesla would do well to take well reasoned negative feedback into consideration to improve their products.

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Feedback from a non-owner ?
TACC "concerns" from someone who has never used TACC ?

SageBrush said:

lpickup said:

Tesla would do well to take well reasoned negative feedback into consideration to improve their products.

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Feedback from a non-owner ?
TACC "concerns" from someone who has never used TACC ?

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Yeah, why not? I was scared to death of TACC myself until I was able to actually use it for several weeks and let it earn my trust (I had constantly been "chickening out" and hitting the brakes). Even now there are certain situations where I am at highway speed and see traffic stopped ahead and wonder if TACC "sees" this or not.

Guy said he had concerns about the safety of TACC. This is his opinion, and I consider it valid. He didn't say Tesla's implementation of TACC sucks and the competition is perfect. So it is a good time to point out (at least I think this is the case) is that if he doesn't trust TACC, he's probably not going to trust EAP, and therefore he shouldn't buy the EAP option, and therefore he is only going to get regular cruise control. And then his right scroll wheel would be completely functionless and he could use it to adjust regen without any fear of inadvertently causing the car to ram into another or brake unexpectedly. Problem solved.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

The above is exhibit A of behavior that some consider trolling.

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I'm not sure I'd call that behavior trolling, but it certainly smacks of the typical armchair, Internet expert. Lots of wordy opinion based upon no actual experience.

SageBrush said:

lpickup said:

Tesla would do well to take well reasoned negative feedback into consideration to improve their products.

Click to expand...

Feedback from a non-owner ?
TACC "concerns" from someone who has never used TACC ?

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Oh, and to address this specific comment, maybe I'll add that they could do something to make people who might be hesitant to use/trust TACC more comfortable with it. Maybe like a training wheels mode where it shows more than just the 100 feet or so ahead of the car on the road, but maybe has some kind of chime or display or something to let you know that it sees that stopped traffic up ahead. Believe me, that kind of additional feedback would have made me far more comfortable in using EAP at first.

jlv said:

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

The above is exhibit A of behavior that some consider trolling.

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I'm not sure I'd call that behavior trolling, but it certainly smacks of the typical armchair, Internet expert. Lots of wordy opinion based upon no actual experience.

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I'll agree with that. And speaking of which...A coworker of mine who has a Porsche 911 (fairly high end model, but since I don't know a lot about them I can't really say which), test drove a Model 3 performance this weekend (and also a P100D) and was completely blown away and turned into an instant convert. Unfortunately he's got a lot of money tied up in the Porsche, but he said if he would get a good trade-in for it he'd order the P3D right away.

lpickup said:

SageBrush said:

lpickup said:

Tesla would do well to take well reasoned negative feedback into consideration to improve their products.

Click to expand...

Feedback from a non-owner ?
TACC "concerns" from someone who has never used TACC ?

Click to expand...

Yeah, why not? I was scared to death of TACC myself until I was able to actually use it for several weeks and let it earn my trust (I had constantly been "chickening out" and hitting the brakes). Even now there are certain situations where I am at highway speed and see traffic stopped ahead and wonder if TACC "sees" this or not.

Guy said he had concerns about the safety of TACC. This is his opinion, and I consider it valid. He didn't say Tesla's implementation of TACC sucks and the competition is perfect. So it is a good time to point out (at least I think this is the case) is that if he doesn't trust TACC, he's probably not going to trust EAP, and therefore he shouldn't buy the EAP option, and therefore he is only going to get regular cruise control. And then his right scroll wheel would be completely functionless and he could use it to adjust regen without any fear of inadvertently causing the car to ram into another or brake unexpectedly. Problem solved.

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I'm sorry, but hearing from someone about how they would never consider flying, because the've read how dangerous flying could be, isn't a good opinion to reference in the 1950's. Tech changes, and thus uninformed opinion is hearsay.

The fact that you had concerns and fears about TACC would make for a good opinion, since you've actually used it and are learning about it through direct experience.

As for the regen toggling, I wasn't thinking of the left-right toggle actions of the scroll wheel, but rather the "park" button. Much like how the "reverse" lever is used to disable TACC while in motion (the car doesn't actually go in reverse), the park button could also be programmed to serve multiple functions that way?

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

GRA said:

lpickup said:

Guy, you effectively raised the same concern. And particularly in the case of the first option (having it assigned to the wheel itself) where the alternate function is the cruise control speed, I think the concern is greater, at least in the case of a rapid slow down, as the car does tend to slow itself down pretty quickly if you adjust the cruise speed down. It's a little more gentle on the speed up side, and since it's traffic aware, it's not like it's going to plow into the car ahead of you. But still it's a valid concern. However, I'm pretty certain it doesn't rise to the level of a critical, dangerous situation, particularly if the down direction means more regen. In this case, the driver intends for the car to slow down more rapidly, and this is going to be the end result whether it's in TACC mode or not. Besides, I don't think the mental gymnastics are too overwhelming. When I'm in TACC mode I am simply not thinking about regen. The car is already doing all the work. And when I'm not in TACC mode, I'm definitely aware that I'm controlling the speed and not the thumbwheel. I have a harder time remembering whether the voice command is triggered by pressing the left or right wheel.

Click to expand...

For me personally, I've come to the conclusion that I simply won't use TACC on any car until such time as that particular model car has L4 autonomy, with the manufacturer accepting responsibility for any injuries/accidents resulting from the failure of those systems. The problem is TACC is currently in that in-between range of reliability where it works most of the time, which lulls people into a false sense of security and thus to trust it, without being reliable enough (six 9s minimum, with 7 or 8 preferred) for me to trust my safety to it. With normal CC I know that if I stop paying attention and don't take action I will rear end any car I overtake, so mental/physical disengagement from driving while using it is simply unthinkable (for me; obviously some people do so, with the inevitable result). I'd love to say that I'm one of the people who will be the exception to the rule when it comes to TACC, but I don't consider it justifiable to risk myself or others if I'm (almost inevitably) proven wrong: the research in this area that virtually everyone's susceptible to automation bias/complacency is overwhelming: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automation_bias#Automation_failure_and_"learned_carelessness"

Click to expand...

In case anyone else doesn't know, GRA doesn't own a Tesla, nor does s/he have any practical experience with one. The above is exhibit A of behavior that some consider trolling.

Click to expand...

If anyone considers the above trolling, they need to refresh their definition of same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

We're talking about TACC as it currently works in the real world, and how good it needs to be (six nines or better) to be acceptably safe, whether it's Tesla or any other company doing it. Here's what Tesla had to say on the subject in Dec. 2015:

This is the true problem of autonomy: getting a machine learning system to be 99% correct is relatively easy, but getting it to be 99.9999% correct*, which is where it ultimately needs to be, is vastly more difficult. One can see this with the annual machine vision competitions, where the computer will properly identify something as a dog more than 99% of the time, but might occasionally call it a potted plant. Making such mistakes at 70 mph would be highly problematic.

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https://www.tesla.com/support/correction-article-first-person-hack-iphone-built-self-driving-car

*i.e. six nines

Every time a Tesla or any other car using TACC runs into a stopped vehicle which it fails to recognize as such, after the car it was pacing changes lanes, is an example where "making such mistakes at 70 mph would be highly problematic."