2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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wch said:
I just got the firmware update, and my SoH went from 85.78% to 93.75%. I have a 2016 SL with 4400 miles, which I bought essentially new about 8 months ago.

SOH_post = 57 + 0.43 * SOH_pre =57 + 0.43 * 85.78 = 93.89, pretty close to your measured SOH 93.75
 
bedoig said:
Checking in. My rough timeline (I didn't track this very thoroughly):

Sep-2017 - 79% SOH, one bar lost
Dec-2017 - 72% SOH, still at one bar loss
...
Didn't track / post, but lost bars two and three in this period
...
Sep-2018 - 63% SOH, still at three bar loss
Oct-2018 - 59% SOH, still at three bar loss

For the record I haven't done the battery firmware update yet. I kind of wanted to drop the fourth bar first just to document it.

Conventional wisdom around here has seemed to indicate loss of the fourth bar around 64% SOH but I'm now well below that. Anybody have any thoughts on what other metrics drive the bar losses? I'm assuming there is some kind of time / distance requirement on top of the direct measurements the battery is providing. Feels like I should have dropped that next bar already. My real world range from 100% down to several miles below VLB is now somewhere in the 70-80 mile range. This isn't going to cut it during the winter for my 67 mile round trip commute.

N88THLEXa3rRyoDq5


muPUHy3MU2mn1gH57


CYNwSJtoMPmKqe376


Hmm... images don't seem to be working. Shared folder should be here though: https://photos.app.goo.gl/hJ8RPakgdu2X5Q138

Just did the math for your case, your SOH after sw update would be close to 82% and probably bring back all lost bars. But the EPA would be 107 *.82 = 88 miles. it might be very tough for your commute in the worst winter days if you have the S trim.
 
Oct update. I now have about 7000 mi on the new battery after 4 1/2 months. I'm showing the first signs of detirioration already. Stats as of Nov 1.

359 GID's, AH=78.47, SOH=98.73% Hx=90.30%. 51819 mi (6890 mi. on new bat.). 120 L3 (6 on new bat.), 1005 L2 (131on new bat.),

Going by AH, I'm down by 4.5% from new. GID's value didn't budge for the first 3 months and is now dropping. Annual loss is estimated at 11% at the current rate. I'm still expecting the loss to slow over the winter but time will tell. At the current rate, the battery will just miss the 100K warranty. So maybe 60k before the fourth bar drops on the new battery. If the detirioration slows in the winter, then maybe 70-75K before the fourth bar drops. I certainly wouldn't expect much better than that.
 
JTim said:
Stanton said:
JTim said:
Counted 11 battery capacity bars this morning 3/22/17.

ODO 6,157
AHr=65.42
Hx=80.04
SOH=82%

Tim

So after ~18 months, it's almost like you have a "new" 24 kWHr battery pack??

Took delivery 12/15/15, so 12/15/16 was 1 year-ish -- could be closer to 14 or 15 months?

JTim

1st Bar Drop since battery re-programming
11/2/18 charging 20% to 100%, ODO 15,799, reset Trip B) 94.2 (since last charge)
SOH 83.37 AR 67.06 HX 62.84 (59-degrees outside)
L1/2 430 QC 18
6/26/18 reprogramming battery controller ODO 13,518
 
bedoig said:
Checking in. My rough timeline (I didn't track this very thoroughly):

Sep-2017 - 79% SOH, one bar lost
Dec-2017 - 72% SOH, still at one bar loss
...
Didn't track / post, but lost bars two and three in this period
...
Sep-2018 - 63% SOH, still at three bar loss
Oct-2018 - 59% SOH, still at three bar loss
Some did not lose the 4th bar until as low as 54.98 SOH. Mine dropped at 63.55.

For the record I haven't done the battery firmware update yet. I kind of wanted to drop the fourth bar first just to document it.

Conventional wisdom around here has seemed to indicate loss of the fourth bar around 64% SOH but I'm now well below that. Anybody have any thoughts on what other metrics drive the bar losses? I'm assuming there is some kind of time / distance requirement on top of the direct measurements the battery is providing. Feels like I should have dropped that next bar already. My real world range from 100% down to several miles below VLB is now somewhere in the 70-80 mile range. This isn't going to cut it during the winter for my 67 mile round trip commute.

N88THLEXa3rRyoDq5


muPUHy3MU2mn1gH57


CYNwSJtoMPmKqe376


Hmm... images don't seem to be working. Shared folder should be here though: https://photos.app.goo.gl/hJ8RPakgdu2X5Q138
 
johnlocke said:
Oct update. I now have about 7000 mi on the new battery after 4 1/2 months. I'm showing the first signs of detirioration already. Stats as of Nov 1.

359 GID's, AH=78.47, SOH=98.73% Hx=90.30%. 51819 mi (6890 mi. on new bat.). 120 L3 (6 on new bat.), 1005 L2 (131on new bat.),

Going by AH, I'm down by 4.5% from new. GID's value didn't budge for the first 3 months and is now dropping. Annual loss is estimated at 11% at the current rate. I'm still expecting the loss to slow over the winter but time will tell. At the current rate, the battery will just miss the 100K warranty. So maybe 60k before the fourth bar drops on the new battery. If the detirioration slows in the winter, then maybe 70-75K before the fourth bar drops. I certainly wouldn't expect much better than that.

Is this rate of degradation an improvement as compared to the original battery?

Edit: asking to see if it indicates that the firmware update held and that a new firmware update isn't needed.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
johnlocke said:
Oct update. I now have about 7000 mi on the new battery after 4 1/2 months. I'm showing the first signs of deterioration already. Stats as of Nov 1.

359 GID's, AH=78.47, SOH=98.73% Hx=90.30%. 51819 mi (6890 mi. on new bat.). 120 L3 (6 on new bat.), 1005 L2 (131 on new bat.),

Going by AH, I'm down by 4.5% from new. GID's value didn't budge for the first 3 months and is now dropping. Annual loss is estimated at 11% at the current rate. I'm still expecting the loss to slow over the winter but time will tell. At the current rate, the battery will just miss the 100K warranty. So maybe 60k before the fourth bar drops on the new battery. If the deterioration slows in the winter, then maybe 70-75K before the fourth bar drops. I certainly wouldn't expect much better than that.

Is this rate of degradation an improvement as compared to the original battery?

Edit: asking to see if it indicates that the firmware update held and that a new firmware update isn't needed.
It's hard to compare apples to apples here. Timewise the first battery was in better shape after 4 1/2 months but that was Dec-Apr time frame as opposed to Jun-Oct for the new battery. If I look at Jun-Oct for the old battery, it had a 9% loss compared to a 4.4% loss for the new one. That summer was brutal on the old battery and the second summer was just as bad although by that time I was QC'ing on a weekly basis which could have had some effect as well.

My guess is that the new battery is somewhat better but not as advertised. It will take another 3-4 months to get a better idea of cold weather performance and perhaps until June of next year to get a sense of what the real annual loss is like. If the deterioration slows significantly during the cool months, we might be looking at 6-8% annual losses. Still not the 2-3% annual loss Nissan suggested as "normal".
 
I have recently bought a 2016 30kwh S model (12 bars / 91%SOH) with 25.600km on the clock. Software has been upgraded by Nissan when I bought from dealer. Got the documentation showing improvement after software update.

This is the 3rd week I'm using it and did an experiment.

I have charged the battery to 100% and drove in ECO mode all the time, A/C off all the time.

The range on the dash showed 191km at 100%.

Yesterday before charging it again I had drove 192km and still had 13% of battery remaining (~27km).

I could have driven a bit more before charging, and think the way I drive I could have easily passed the 200km mark.

I'm in New Zealand and driving mostly on flat. Around 80% flat surface and 20% small hills.

Hope it helps. Cheers

0lxJlgL.jpg
 
jubamad said:
I have recently bought a 2016 30kwh S model (12 bars / 91%SOH) with 25.600km on the clock. Software has been upgraded by Nissan when I bought from dealer. Got the documentation showing improvement after software update.

This is the 3rd week I'm using it and did an experiment.

I have charged the battery to 100% and drove in ECO mode all the time, A/C off all the time.

The range on the dash showed 191km at 100%.

Yesterday before charging it again I had drove 192km and still had 13% of battery remaining (~27km).

I could have driven a bit more before charging, and think the way I drive I could have easily passed the 200km mark.

I'm in New Zealand and driving mostly on flat. Around 80% flat surface and 20% small hills.

Hope it helps.
Honestly, it doesn't help at all unless you also noted your efficiency (e.g. miles/kWh or km/kWh). You would've needed to reset that meter at the beginning of the trip and noted the value at the end. If someone drives your car faster, there will be less charge remaining or might not make it 192 km. If someone drives it slower, it'll have a greater % remaining.

You can take a look at the range chart at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=4295. You'll want to d/l the metric ones. Also read https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-s-efficiency-and-range and https://web.archive.org/web/20110319233606/https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/roadster-efficiency-and-range for background info. Yes, it's written by Tesla but the principles are the same.
 
jubamad said:
I have recently bought a 2016 30kwh S model (12 bars / 91%SOH) with 25.600km on the clock. Software has been upgraded by Nissan when I bought from dealer. Got the documentation showing improvement after software update.

This is the 3rd week I'm using it and did an experiment.

I have charged the battery to 100% and drove in ECO mode all the time, A/C off all the time.

The range on the dash showed 191km at 100%.

Yesterday before charging it again I had drove 192km and still had 13% of battery remaining (~27km).

I could have driven a bit more before charging, and think the way I drive I could have easily passed the 200km mark.

I'm in New Zealand and driving mostly on flat. Around 80% flat surface and 20% small hills.

Hope it helps. Cheers

0lxJlgL.jpg

We get similar results depending on driving conditions. We count on 180 km but could easily get in the low 200’s depending on where we are driving. We are in BC Canada where it is much more mountainous. We have about a third less kms on ours. Great car. We are planning on a model 3 Tesla in spring 2020 but will be interesting to see the long range Leaf when it comes out.
 
CarlAZ said:
Just noticed the 1st bar drop a couple of days ago. 2017 SL model. Only have about 8800 miles and owned almost 1 year. This is way sooner then I expected. I have used QC less then 5 times and mostly using L2 charging. Should I be worried about this?

Just a quick update: This week, I noticed that I lost the 2nd bar!!! Only about 2 months after losing the 1st bar. My car now has about 10500 miles. I had the Lithium-ion Battery Controller (LBC) recall done about a month ago. I did not realize the any difference after the recall (I do not have leaf spy). 2 bars in about 1 year and 10k miles, now should I be worried? Any suggestions? Thank you!
 
The most perplexing thing about all this is that it really seems like Nissan had the 2015/2016 24kWh chemistry nailed down and the move to NMC should have further stabilized things if you are to believe the print. Just go onto a used car search site and look at 15's for sale nationwide even in pretty hot areas with 50,60 and 70k miles on them and 12 bars with 80 miles on the GOM ECO off. There's no way that all these random dealers are taking the time to generate an inflated 5 or 6 mile p/kWh GOM reading let alone possess some mysterious BMS/LBC hack. It certainly leaves the 40kWh pack up in the air now as well.
 
CarlAZ said:
CarlAZ said:
Just noticed the 1st bar drop a couple of days ago. 2017 SL model. Only have about 8800 miles and owned almost 1 year. This is way sooner then I expected. I have used QC less then 5 times and mostly using L2 charging. Should I be worried about this?

Just a quick update: This week, I noticed that I lost the 2nd bar!!! Only about 2 months after losing the 1st bar. My car now has about 10500 miles. I had the Lithium-ion Battery Controller (LBC) recall done about a month ago. I did not realize the any difference after the recall (I do not have leaf spy). 2 bars in about 1 year and 10k miles, now should I be worried? Any suggestions? Thank you!


Have you got your software updated? It should fix that.
 
jubamad said:
CarlAZ said:
CarlAZ said:
Just noticed the 1st bar drop a couple of days ago. 2017 SL model. Only have about 8800 miles and owned almost 1 year. This is way sooner then I expected. I have used QC less then 5 times and mostly using L2 charging. Should I be worried about this?

Just a quick update: This week, I noticed that I lost the 2nd bar!!! Only about 2 months after losing the 1st bar. My car now has about 10500 miles. I had the Lithium-ion Battery Controller (LBC) recall done about a month ago. I did not realize the any difference after the recall (I do not have leaf spy). 2 bars in about 1 year and 10k miles, now should I be worried? Any suggestions? Thank you!


Have you got your software updated? It should fix that.

Yes. As mentioned in my post, I had it done last month and it did not fix the problem.
 
I had a new battery installed in June and the LBC firmware updated a couple of weeks later just to be sure it had been done. As of today, I have 77.51 AH capacity down from a peak of 82.09 AH. That's down 5.5% in 5 months. I think that it's safe to say that in my case the firmware update didn't do squat. It will probably be hit or miss whether the new battery fails inside the warranty period. I guess it's time to start saving my pennies for either a better replacement battery or a different brand EV altogether. On reflection, I think a new car from a different brand makes more sense since I'd get updated electronics as well as an improved battery. Rather than dumping $5-6K on a battery replacement, using it to put a downpayment on something else makes more sense. A used Model 3 might make more sense if one is available. VW, BMW and Mercedes will have EV's to sell by then and Tesla's Model Y should also be ready.
 
johnlocke said:
I had a new battery installed in June and the LBC firmware updated a couple of weeks later just to be sure it had been done. As of today, I have 77.51 AH capacity down from a peak of 82.09 AH. That's down 5.5% in 5 months. I think that it's safe to say that in my case the firmware update didn't do squat. It will probably be hit or miss whether the new battery fails inside the warranty period. I guess it's time to start saving my pennies for either a better replacement battery or a different brand EV altogether. On reflection, I think a new car from a different brand makes more sense since I'd get updated electronics as well as an improved battery. Rather than dumping $5-6K on a battery replacement, using it to put a downpayment on something else makes more sense. A used Model 3 might make more sense if one is available. VW, BMW and Mercedes will have EV's to sell by then and Tesla's Model Y should also be ready.

Given this, I suggest you drive it hard and leave it at 100% when it's more convenient to do so. Either you get a new battery for free or you turn it in and get a better car. If it isn't leased, though, it may be hard to sell with 10 or 9 bars...
 
I gave my Leaf back to Nissan for a reasonable early termination fee and got a Model 3 while the full tax credit is in effect. I never did drop my fourth bar, SOH was around 57% at the end. The Model 3 really is an awesome car - highly recommend it.
 
LeftieBiker said:
johnlocke said:
I had a new battery installed in June and the LBC firmware updated a couple of weeks later just to be sure it had been done. As of today, I have 77.51 AH capacity down from a peak of 82.09 AH. That's down 5.5% in 5 months. I think that it's safe to say that in my case the firmware update didn't do squat. It will probably be hit or miss whether the new battery fails inside the warranty period. I guess it's time to start saving my pennies for either a better replacement battery or a different brand EV altogether. On reflection, I think a new car from a different brand makes more sense since I'd get updated electronics as well as an improved battery. Rather than dumping $5-6K on a battery replacement, using it to put a downpayment on something else makes more sense. A used Model 3 might make more sense if one is available. VW, BMW and Mercedes will have EV's to sell by then and Tesla's Model Y should also be ready.

Given this, I suggest you drive it hard and leave it at 100% when it's more convenient to do so. Either you get a new battery for free or you turn it in and get a better car. If it isn't leased, though, it may be hard to sell with 10 or 9 bars...
Like an Idiot I bought instead of leasing. With as many miles as I drive, A lease didn't seem to be any better than a purchase and It did have a 100K warranty after all. I expected that the battery might fail around 80-85K and I'd get a replacement and another 80K out of the car before junking it. If I'm lucky, the battery will fail around 90-95K and I'll get a third battery for free. If not, then I'll get rid of it at 100K anyway.
 
johnlocke said:
LeftieBiker said:
johnlocke said:
I had a new battery installed in June and the LBC firmware updated a couple of weeks later just to be sure it had been done. As of today, I have 77.51 AH capacity down from a peak of 82.09 AH. That's down 5.5% in 5 months. I think that it's safe to say that in my case the firmware update didn't do squat. It will probably be hit or miss whether the new battery fails inside the warranty period. I guess it's time to start saving my pennies for either a better replacement battery or a different brand EV altogether. On reflection, I think a new car from a different brand makes more sense since I'd get updated electronics as well as an improved battery. Rather than dumping $5-6K on a battery replacement, using it to put a downpayment on something else makes more sense. A used Model 3 might make more sense if one is available. VW, BMW and Mercedes will have EV's to sell by then and Tesla's Model Y should also be ready.

Given this, I suggest you drive it hard and leave it at 100% when it's more convenient to do so. Either you get a new battery for free or you turn it in and get a better car. If it isn't leased, though, it may be hard to sell with 10 or 9 bars...
Like an Idiot I bought instead of leasing. With as many miles as I drive, A lease didn't seem to be any better than a purchase and It did have a 100K warranty after all. I expected that the battery might fail around 80-85K and I'd get a replacement and another 80K out of the car before junking it. If I'm lucky, the battery will fail around 90-95K and I'll get a third battery for free. If not, then I'll get rid of it at 100K anyway.


Kinda funny because I was in your situation as well. (my 2016 amassed 30,000 miles in less than 14 months) but if you can survive the 8¼ bar life, you actually will make out VERY well especially if you can do it twice before 100K... Hard to beat that benefit.

As for my 2018? I have changed to a MUCH easier life (3-5 hours per day in the car was affecting my health in a very bad way) and I basically did so because I could easily make a 150 mile car work even if it degraded to 8¼ bars (AKA about 100 miles... :) )

So my hope is to have 90% of my original capacity at 100 Kmiles or be on pack #2.... Either way is fine for me.

What would be a nightmare would be at 8¾ bars (8¼ bars is something I would not allow to happen)
 
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