smkettner
Well-known member
OK and in four years it might be another 20k for a new LEAF again. The others are far more likely to go ten+ years.golfcart said:
Thoughts on keeping leaf vs upgrading
- Thread starter golfcart
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golfcart
Well-known member
smkettner said:
I guess that's one way to look at it but if i were going to get a non Nissan EV I'd probably go for one of the Hyundai models since the bolt and Tesla are both more expensive and ready to lose the full federal tax credit. I'm not saying they're bad cars I just think they cost too much more than the leaf for no real added utility in my situation.
I bought the 2015 knowing i'd have about 5 years where it would safely make my commute with the 24kWh pack. What i didn't anticipate was that battery replacements would actually get more expensive and that they wouldn't let u just drop in a 40kWh pack into a 2015. I assumed that by 2020 I'd be able to just replace my battery witha larger one for $5k or less. Clearly I was wrong.
Regardless, I don't see myself needing to replace a 40kWh leaf in 4 years, I need a reliable 65+ miles of range in any season that's all. The 40kWh leaf will do that under warranty for 8 years or 100k miles so I don't see degradation as a huge issue with a 2018.
powersurge
Well-known member
Get a hyndai EV? If people complain of how Nissan supports its EVs, do you think you will ever get any support from the cheap Korean cars??? Stick with Leaf, or go American with the Bolt...
REALITY CHECK ON THIS TOPIC..... Also, If you got a Brand New Leaf for $15k (total out of pocket), you got a better deal than most of us... You should not be complaining about concerns of resale value. Even if you got $3k for the car at the end of the car battery's life, you did good.. Anybody would Kill to have a brand new car that only cost $1,000 per year during its life. I have my minivan for 20 Years and I am jubilant that it only cost me $1,500 per year to own...
REALITY CHECK ON THIS TOPIC..... Also, If you got a Brand New Leaf for $15k (total out of pocket), you got a better deal than most of us... You should not be complaining about concerns of resale value. Even if you got $3k for the car at the end of the car battery's life, you did good.. Anybody would Kill to have a brand new car that only cost $1,000 per year during its life. I have my minivan for 20 Years and I am jubilant that it only cost me $1,500 per year to own...
golfcart
Well-known member
powersurge said:
I appreciate the reality check but I don't recall complaining at any point during this thread about Nissan support for the EV or the deal I got on my Leaf. I am ecstatic about the deal I got and how reliable the car has been. My American-made (Smyrna, TN) Leaf has been a great car and the Nissan dealership I purchased it from has been awesome. Again, no complaints, just reality and the best way to deal with that reality. I'm just trying to make the best long-term decision and soliciting thoughts and advice from the forum as I hash through the options. Counting my blessings that I got a great deal isn't gonna get me to work and back on a 30 degree day or optimize my spending on transportation over the next 5 years.
As far as the Hyundai goes, if you think a $37,000 Bolt or Tesla with a reduced (or no) tax credit is a better deal than a $30,000 Ioniq with a $7500 tax credit then you are entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make sense for my situation. An extra hundred miles of range does absolutely nothing for me so I'd take my chances with the Hyundai given those choices and put the $10k I saved in my kids 529 account. Hyundai makes a good car and my parents have had one of their Hybrids for a while with good results. I'm not planning on getting a Hyundai though, if I get another car next year it'll 90% likely be another Leaf.
In a related note, I spoke with my employer and they sound supportive of the idea of installing some "chargers" at the office. If that becomes reality I'll probably just keep driving this 2015 for the foreseeable future. Time will tell though, we don't own the building so it is really going to come down to the property manager and people that own the building.
Powersurge just blurts out whatever is on his mind, regardless of how factual or helpful. Don't take him too seriously.
WetEV
Well-known member
powersurge said:
Yes, except it wasn't a slightly more powerful computer. Until scaling could no longer make computers faster, it was often as much as twice as fast in every two years. The 2MHz i8080 was replaced with a top of the line 33 MHz 486, wow... Which looked pretty pathetic when replaced with a 250MHz Pentium... Which looked pretty pathetic when replaced with a 1GHz Pentium. Once the end of scaling happened at about 3 to 4GHz, then all gains come from having multiple CPUs. Which are usually not large of speed increase as usually only one or two CPUs is doing useful work. Yes, for some problems you can run much faster. I currently have a Core i3 and a Core i5. Yes, a Core i7 and a Core i9 are out, and are a few percent faster... Maybe even 2X faster. But not 4x faster, unless you have a very special sort of problem to work on.
Batteries and EVs are in the early years. Expect newer, higher capacity and cheaper EVs to keep coming out. Expect the supply to be often production limited.
oz10k
Active member
golfcart said:
Give them a low cost option to start with, just some outlets (120 and/or 240) and dedicated parking spots.
powersurge
Well-known member
[/quote said:
You cant say that a Leaf only lasts 4 years. If you bought a Leaf needing every mile of range when new. If you cannot live with slow and steady battery deterioration, then that is your poor planning.
I have mine for 4 years and it drives almost as well and as far as new. I think that the Leaf's battery lifetime is about 7-10 years, based on what I see in used 11-12 Leaf battery conditions. I have planned that my leaf will be useful to me up to the time it can go to 35-40 miles total range. Then I will change the battery.
specialgreen
Well-known member
golfcart said:
That's great, GolfCart. It's the cheapest option, and you should be able to add about 36 miles' range over an 8-hour day at 120v, or a full charge at 240v. If they wire it for 20a 240v, the outlet uses the exact same 3 wires and the same conduit size as a 120v 20a outlet, so there should be zero extra electrician cost... but it doubles your charge speed, and helps if you are preheating before leaving work. Also, if it's a 240v outlet, then the outlet is less likely to be used by the landscaper, etc.
You can also ask your employer for a bigger (30a, 40a, 50a) receptacle, but all of those will increase the wiring cost, mostly in proportion to the distance from the breaker panel.
They may have trouble installing a non-GFCI outlet outdoors. If that's the case, they may need to hardwire an EVSE (the electrician can cut the plug off a UL-listed EVSE and hardwire it). The cheapest UL-listed EVSE I've seen is AmazingE, but that is 16a 240v only. For 120v, you could sacrifice your Nissan EVSE and then go buy something else for home. Clipper Creek hardwire would be a great choice, if the company can afford spending a couple hundred more at the start.
Some employers care alot about the possible monthly expense. This is because everyone knows gasoline is expensive, but they don't know how cheap EVs are. If they limit the outlet to 120v 20a, then it can only supply 15.36 kwhrs per 8-hour day. In my state, business General Power costs 5 cents/kwhr on-peak + $12/kw monthly demand-charge, so an EVSE pulling 16a 120v for every hour of every business day would cost 77 cents/day for the kwhrs plus $23/month for the demand charge, or around $46 total per month (theoretical maximum). Per-employee EVSE charging costs less than per-employee office coffee. (https://www.costowl.com/b2b/office-coffee-delivery-cost.html ).
I think, like office coffee, widespread office and parking-ramp EVSE availability is coming. Not because people will need it to get home: newer EVs will make that unnecessary. Rather, because charging at home is impractical for most apartment residents. I suspect that in the US, EV adoption has largely been limited to homeowners (64% of US population and declining for 13 years).
golfcart
Well-known member
specialgreen said:
I told them I'm open to all of the above. L2 would be great but L1 would get the job done for me as well. I agree on the cost being small in the long run, I don't drink coffee so this would be my perk. haha
I'm with you OP in your search for value. For me, that was getting a new 2018 Leaf at current heavily discounted prices. I picked up my SL at the end of September for less than 18k+TTL including the federal and state rebates. I didn't want to pay $5k(28%) more for the Bolt or $20k(110%) for the M3 for the additional 1% utility and status/cool factor (for the M3, not the Bolt :lol: ). Also people seem to forget that the 60 kWh Leaf will be more expensive than the 40 kWh. Certainly there are a good number people who want that, but I still do not want to pay extra for the additional marginal utility. As for the battery depreciation risk, with the 8 year/100k mile battery warranty, I expect to get a minimum of 10 years out of this and it should still have range somewhere between the 24 kWh and 30 kWh Leaf. That still satisfies my needs 95% of the time, but I'll likely want an awesome 2028 EVs!
I also chose to buy before end of year because there is also value in getting the $7500 federal tax rebate one year earlier compared to waiting until Jan.
I also chose to buy before end of year because there is also value in getting the $7500 federal tax rebate one year earlier compared to waiting until Jan.
alozzy
Well-known member
You're lucky that good local discounts are available, that you have both federal and state incentives, and that you live in the US 
In Vancouver, Canada the 2018 LEAF has been selling at sticker price. We do have a $5K incentive from the provincial government, but nothing on a national level. The 2018 LEAF entry level S costs $37K, so the EV incentive only drops the price to $32K. Too expensive for me to contemplate.
In Vancouver, Canada the 2018 LEAF has been selling at sticker price. We do have a $5K incentive from the provincial government, but nothing on a national level. The 2018 LEAF entry level S costs $37K, so the EV incentive only drops the price to $32K. Too expensive for me to contemplate.
alozzy said:You're lucky that good local discounts are available, that you have both federal and state incentives, and that you live in the US
In Vancouver, Canada the 2018 LEAF has been selling at sticker price. We do have a $5K incentive from the provincial government, but nothing on a national level. The 2018 LEAF entry level S costs $37K, so the EV incentive only drops the price to $32K. Too expensive for me to contemplate.
Yea, I honestly don't know why the 2018 Leaf isn't selling better in the US. Maybe it's the issues people had with the old batteries, including the problems some faced even with the 30 kWh. Maybe American's are just more fickle. Glad to see it finding a market around the globe otherwise. It really is a great car.
Well I can't complain as other people's disdain is just my gain. "Be greedy when others are fearful" :lol:
The Leaf (and Renault Zoe) sell well in Europe for three reasons. The first is that European cities are more compact so range is less of an issue. The second is that the batteries in Europe don't seem to experience the levels of degradation that we see in the U.S. The same goes for Japan as well. The third is simply the fuel cost. Gasoline in Europe costs over $6/gal. Electric Is $0.20/KWH. Cost per mile for an ICE is three times as much as an electric.
As an owner of a Tesla and a LEAF, I can tell you that the Tesla has a LOT more than 1% additional marginal utility:kosjet said:
- Safety
Enjoyment
Superior engineering
Expected long life
*Full replacement of an ICE*
I paid $46k for the two cars net out of pocket and pay trivial fuel costs. No back-up ICE crap rusting in my driveway while I am forced to pay carrying costs. It would be difficult if not impossible to have better value.
golfcart
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
That must have been back when Colorado would still give you a $5000 tax credit on an $8000 used leaf from a different state. I was doing some
work in Boulder from 2015 - 2017 and guys were eating that up. What a ridiculous deal that was.
I do miss having a performance car. Before i got the leaf I had a heavily modified WRX turbo wagon that would run low 13s in the quarter mile. The leaf is peppy around town but doesn't throw you back in your seat like I'm sure the Tesla does.
I just can't see spending $35k on a car though. I'd rather buy the cheaper car for commuting and spend the extra money on kart racing. The leaf, Tesla, or a Corvette all feel the same on cruise control doing 60 which is 95% of my driving.
You are right that Colorado gave me a tax credit for purchase of my used LEAF but it was ~ $2000 on a $8300 car. Still, a wonderful deal.
The Tesla is the first car I have ever owned that has more than ~ 100 Hp or so. I didn't buy it for the power, and it is just not in my genes to be a fast or aggressive driver. And yet now when I drive our LEAF it seems woefully underpowered. Strange how that works.
I certainly understand the desire to not waste money on cars but I view cost in terms of total cost of ownership and safety while striving be a positive member of society.
The Tesla is the first car I have ever owned that has more than ~ 100 Hp or so. I didn't buy it for the power, and it is just not in my genes to be a fast or aggressive driver. And yet now when I drive our LEAF it seems woefully underpowered. Strange how that works.
I certainly understand the desire to not waste money on cars but I view cost in terms of total cost of ownership and safety while striving be a positive member of society.
golfcart
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
I notice you keep saying safety... Is there a reason you consider a 2018 model 3 to be substantially safer than a 2018 leaf given that the new leaf has automatic emergency braking, blind spot detection, propilot, etc...?
tesleaf
Well-known member
I usually buy new cars. But buying a used 2015 leaf made sense.
The 1st owner paid $11k(?) Over 3 yrs.
For $11k, I get to keep the car until it is useless. I still get about 65miles if i drive it like a grandma. But i only need 24 miles a day.
If the battery degradation is logarithmic and slows down, i will be fine for 10+ years.
My plan is to drive it for 3 years and sell it for $5k.
The 1st owner paid $11k(?) Over 3 yrs.
For $11k, I get to keep the car until it is useless. I still get about 65miles if i drive it like a grandma. But i only need 24 miles a day.
If the battery degradation is logarithmic and slows down, i will be fine for 10+ years.
My plan is to drive it for 3 years and sell it for $5k.
