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cwerdna said:
GRA said:
EVDRIVER said:
Silver is the most rare color and not even produced anymore after Sept. Black and white are the most common colors.
Interesting, because here in the Bay Area based on my eyeball survey I'd say the most popular colors are Midnight Silver followed by Deep Blue. There's some blacks and a few reds, but I've seen very few whites.
What Tesla calls "Midnight Silver", I'd call dark grey. It's a color I don't like. It's still available and thus common.

EVDRIVER's I believe referring to "Metallic Silver" which is rare because it's discontinued (https://www.autoblog.com/2018/09/11/elon-musk-tesla-eliminates-paint-colors/). That color is what I'd call silver on a car.
Yes, I knew that's what he meant, as three of the four cars I've owned have been 'silver metallic' :D While it's a great color for longevity and has a high albedo to keep temps down, I admit I'm kind of tired of it. I like the dark gray (Midnight Silver), but that (or black) are the wrong colors for anyone who places a high priority on limiting battery degradation. White's boring albeit with the same advantages as silver, and I don't much care for Tesla's red, so if I were interested in a Model 3 I'd probably opt for Deep Blue. Actually, I'm sort of surprised that more people don't complain about having to pay $1.5 or $2.5k to get some color other than black. The Model 3's much closer to the opposite end of the price range than the Model T was, and it's not as if most of the available color options are exotic. Maybe it will be seen as more of a problem if they ever produce the SR, where the price increment will be larger.
 
With the earlier discussion about how reservations are holding up — they haven't really been needed for USA orders for some months — I found this tidbit from the quarterly report interesting:
In 2018, we delivered a total of 245,240 vehicles: 145,846 Model 3 and 99,394 Model S and X. To put our growth into perspective, we delivered almost as many vehicles in 2018 as we did in all prior years combined.

Our Q4 Model 3 deliveries were limited to mid- and higher-priced variants, cash/loan transactions, and North American customers only. More than three quarters of Model 3 orders in Q4 came from new customers, rather than reservation holders.

http://ir.teslamotors.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesla-q4-2018-vehicle-production-deliveries-also-announcing-2000

Since lot of Q4 Model 3 orders were from new customers, as opposed to reservation holders, it may bode well for sales going forward.
 
dgpcolorado said:
With the earlier discussion about how reservations are holding up — they haven't really been needed for USA orders for some months — I found this tidbit from the quarterly report interesting:
In 2018, we delivered a total of 245,240 vehicles: 145,846 Model 3 and 99,394 Model S and X. To put our growth into perspective, we delivered almost as many vehicles in 2018 as we did in all prior years combined.

Our Q4 Model 3 deliveries were limited to mid- and higher-priced variants, cash/loan transactions, and North American customers only. More than three quarters of Model 3 orders in Q4 came from new customers, rather than reservation holders.

http://ir.teslamotors.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesla-q4-2018-vehicle-production-deliveries-also-announcing-2000

Since lot of Q4 Model 3 orders were from new customers, as opposed to reservation holders, it may bode well for sales going forward.
Or it may be people saw the opportunity to jump in and get one before the credit reduced, and there's no carry-over. We'll see.
 
GRA said:
Or it may be people saw the opportunity to jump in and get one before the credit reduced, and there's no carry-over. We'll see.
Nevertheless, those buyers had to be aware that the Model 3 existed and that suggests that the knowledge has spread a bit beyond the small world of EV fans who put in reservations. I'm inclined to find that encouraging.
 
dgpcolorado said:
GRA said:
Or it may be people saw the opportunity to jump in and get one before the credit reduced, and there's no carry-over. We'll see.
Nevertheless, those buyers had to be aware that the Model 3 existed and that suggests that the knowledge has spread a bit beyond the small world of EV fans who put in reservations. I'm inclined to find that encouraging.
I do too, but it's only expanded to the somewhat larger group that read the NYT, WSJ and similar papers' auto/style pages. We're still a ways away from general consumer knowledge/interest, which is why a fairly substantial portion of the VW settlement as well as other state subsidies is now being used for education. But until the prices come down, the ranges increase and charging becomes more widely available and faster, I don't foresee any great leap in mass consumer interest, at least not at current U.S. gas prices (today's avg. $2.245). EA is building QC infrastructure usable for everything not a Tesla at a considerable rate, and that helps, but they're also not priced cheaper than gas in most places.
 
Just how to you define “great leap”?

Some would say the last 8 years have already been a Great Leap Forward.
 
Zythryn said:
Just how to you define “great leap”?

Some would say the last 8 years have already been a Great Leap Forward.
As I've stated elsewhere, I think when BEVs get to around 15% of total sales without subsidies or mandates, we'll have reached mass-market acceptance, and sales will take off. On the way to that, 5% and 10% will be significant waypoints. For now (and at any time during the past eight years), except at the luxury end of the market BEVs remain dependent on one or both, and you had/have articles such as
Nissan LEAF Sales Collapse In Ontario
https://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-sales-collapse-in-ontario/

In fact, not only the Nissan LEAF feels the withdrawal of the $14,000 CAD incentive

The latest sales reports from Canada reveals a collapse of electric car sales in Ontario – particularly the popular Nissan LEAF was shown as an example – after the province decided to end the generous incentive of $14,000 CAD through the Electric and Hydrogen Vehicle Incentive Program (EHVIP).

Nissan apparently sold some 695 LEAFs in Ontario in August, but without the support, only 10 were sold during two months – September and November. For comparison, in Quebec (where customers can count on some incentives) sales of LEAF stood at 283 in November. . . .

  • “Green rebates still exist elsewhere in Canada, limited to British Columbia and Quebec, which means both provinces are enjoying an influx of EVs. That in turn lowers the amount of time that people in those provinces have to wait for their new cars, now that Ontarians aren’t interested.The Ontario government believes that by ending the Electric and Hydrogen Vehicle Incentive Program, the province will save around $1 billion over four years.”
So, while we've definitely come a fair distance, there's still further to go than we've come. If you believe IEVS, 2020 may be the tipping point year:
2020 Electric Vehicles: The Big Breakthrough Year For EVs
https://insideevs.com/lists/2020-electric-vehicles-new-evs/326439/

but as most of the vehicles listed are priced well above the affordable range, that's not going to do it. Estimates of when BEVs will have comparable price/performance to ICEs mostly cluster around 2025, and whether we'll have to wait until then or we reach 15% a year or two earlier (or later FTM), I'm not going to guess. As it is, I'm encouraged that 2019 will see the introduction of at least three semi-affordable 200+ mile BEVs to compete with the Bolt, and 2020 may see the first semi-affordable 200+ mile compact AWD BECUV, which (I hope) will kick the market past the next inflection point.
 
GRA said:
Zythryn said:
Just how to you define “great leap”?

Some would say the last 8 years have already been a Great Leap Forward.
As I've stated elsewhere, I think when BEVs get to around 15% of total sales without subsidies or mandates, we'll have reached mass-market acceptance, and sales will take off. On the way to that, 5% and 10% will be significant waypoints. For now (and at any time during the past eight years), except at the luxury end of the market BEVs remain dependent on one or both, and you had/have articles such as
Nissan LEAF Sales Collapse In Ontario
https://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-sales-collapse-in-ontario/

In fact, not only the Nissan LEAF feels the withdrawal of the $14,000 CAD incentive

The latest sales reports from Canada reveals a collapse of electric car sales in Ontario – particularly the popular Nissan LEAF was shown as an example – after the province decided to end the generous incentive of $14,000 CAD through the Electric and Hydrogen Vehicle Incentive Program (EHVIP).

Nissan apparently sold some 695 LEAFs in Ontario in August, but without the support, only 10 were sold during two months – September and November. For comparison, in Quebec (where customers can count on some incentives) sales of LEAF stood at 283 in November. . . .

  • “Green rebates still exist elsewhere in Canada, limited to British Columbia and Quebec, which means both provinces are enjoying an influx of EVs. That in turn lowers the amount of time that people in those provinces have to wait for their new cars, now that Ontarians aren’t interested.The Ontario government believes that by ending the Electric and Hydrogen Vehicle Incentive Program, the province will save around $1 billion over four years.”
So, while we've definitely come a fair distance, there's still further to go than we've come. If you believe IEVS, 2020 may be the tipping point year:
2020 Electric Vehicles: The Big Breakthrough Year For EVs
https://insideevs.com/lists/2020-electric-vehicles-new-evs/326439/

but as most of the vehicles listed are priced well above the affordable range, that's not going to do it. Estimates of when BEVs will have comparable price/performance to ICEs mostly cluster around 2025, and whether we'll have to wait until then or we reach 15% a year or two earlier (or later FTM), I'm not going to guess. As it is, I'm encouraged that 2019 will see the introduction of at least three semi-affordable 200+ mile BEVs to compete with the Bolt, and 2020 may see the first semi-affordable 200+ mile compact AWD BECUV, which (I hope) will kick the market past the next inflection point.

We're already past the inflection point on an s-curve. It's now strictly production constraints. A 40kwh Nissan leaf S for $26k (assuming federal tax credits expired and only NMAC incentives of $4k) already has a 5-year (Edmunds depreciation hit assumes the federal tax credit is taken) TCO of less than a Toyota Yaris.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
We're already past the inflection point on an s-curve. It's now strictly production constraints.

Really? Based on what automotive data from 2018, hopefully not the M3 marginal production of about 20K per month? You are aware
of the total U.S. auto sales for 2018, i.e. 17M. BEV sales, especially the M3, to most are laughable when viewed in the logical context.


Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
A 40kwh Nissan leaf S for $26k (assuming federal tax credits expired and only NMAC incentives of $4k) already has a 5-year (Edmunds depreciation hit assumes the federal tax credit is taken) TCO of less than a Toyota Yaris.

Why this mention, again, of TCO with regard to a BEV consumer purchase? It's as if the typical consumer uses a HP financial calculator
to determine TCO of a vehicle purchase based on the net present value of the future discounted cash flows. The sales in the U.S. of trucks
totally refutes any basis for a typical consumer even giving much consideration to the most basic vehicle cost in the decision process, i.e. MPG.
 
lorenfb said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
We're already past the inflection point on an s-curve. It's now strictly production constraints.

Really? Based on what automotive data from 2018, hopefully not the M3 marginal production of about 20K per month? You are aware
of the total U.S. auto sales for 2018, i.e. 17M. BEV sales, especially the M3, to most are laughable when viewed in the logical context.


Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
A 40kwh Nissan leaf S for $26k (assuming federal tax credits expired and only NMAC incentives of $4k) already has a 5-year (Edmunds depreciation hit assumes the federal tax credit is taken) TCO of less than a Toyota Yaris.

Why this mention, again, of TCO with regard to a BEV consumer purchase? It's as if the typical consumer uses a HP financial calculator
to determine TCO of a vehicle purchase based on the net present value of the future discounted cash flows. The sales in the U.S. of trucks
totally refutes any basis for a typical consumer even giving much consideration to the most basic vehicle cost in the decision process, i.e. MPG.

You're mistaking a half-way point with a mindshare tipping point (aka change in sentiment).

Based on the AAA study showing that 20% of buyers wanting an EV for their next vehicle (up from 15% in 2017), consumer sentiment is already changing: https://newsroom.aaa.com/2018/05/1-in-5-us-drivers-want-electric-vehicle/

Besides, the math is already there. The fact that people don't apply it now doesn't mean they won't realize it later.

6.1 million Prii's were sold. That's 6.1 million drivers who put up with slow and ugly, because it made financial sense to. EV's now give the buyers a chance to have a better AND faster drive AND save money. The only trade-off is range, styling, and form factor and those are being addressed with each subsequent model year.

The funny thing about the statistics showing how "poorly" the leaf and bolt sells (less than few months inventory - https://insideevs.com/chevy-volt-bolt-sales-november-2018/, ) is that they still sell much better than many ICE models!
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
The funny thing about the statistics showing how "poorly" the leaf and bolt sells (less than few months inventory - https://insideevs.com/chevy-volt-bolt-sales-november-2018/, ) is that they still sell much better than many ICE models!
Sure but US Bolt and Leaf sales are puny compared to that of GM and Nissan's US sales and most of their other models.

Look at http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019/01/december-2018-the-best-selling-vehicles-in-america-every-vehicle-ranked/.

https://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-group-reports-december-2018-and-2018-calendar-year-u-s-sales
https://media.gm.com/dld/content/Pages/news/us/en/2019/jan/0103-gmsales/_jcr_content/rightpar/sectioncontainer_0/par/download_0/file.res/Deliveries-Quarter-4-2018.pdf from right side of https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2019/jan/0103-gmsales.html

GM no longer releases monthly sales figures, only quarterly now.
 
cwerdna said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
The funny thing about the statistics showing how "poorly" the leaf and bolt sells (less than few months inventory - https://insideevs.com/chevy-volt-bolt-sales-november-2018/, ) is that they still sell much better than many ICE models!
Sure but US Bolt and Leaf sales are puny compared to that of GM and Nissan's US sales and most of their other models.

Look at http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019/01/december-2018-the-best-selling-vehicles-in-america-every-vehicle-ranked/.

https://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-group-reports-december-2018-and-2018-calendar-year-u-s-sales
https://media.gm.com/dld/content/Pages/news/us/en/2019/jan/0103-gmsales/_jcr_content/rightpar/sectioncontainer_0/par/download_0/file.res/Deliveries-Quarter-4-2018.pdf from right side of https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2019/jan/0103-gmsales.html

GM no longer releases monthly sales figures, only quarterly now.

That's a supply issue. The bolt production had already been increased by 20% in 2018. They just need to increase production further, but I'm sure they're having trouble with profitability and battery cell supply. The demand is there though.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
That's a supply issue. The bolt production had already been increased by 20% in 2018. They just need to increase production further, but I'm sure they're having trouble with profitability and battery cell supply. The demand is there though.
Is there really a supply issue?

I was pointed to deals in the Bolt thread (which someone on a FB group pointed me to). https://www.martinchevrolet.com/inventory/New-Chevrolet-Bolt_EV/ allegedly has 118 Bolts, presumably mostly or all in stock. Notice the big discounts? (Was also pointed out to me that $1500 of the discount is only for current GM lessees.)

https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/company_info/facilities/assembly/orion.html is running only a single shift. If you go look at their truck and SUV US plants, they're running 2-3 shifts. (Click on Assembly on the right side.)

I can't speak to battery supply though.

Meanwhile, Tesla is decimating everyone else in US BEV sales: https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ w/virtually no discounting.
 
cwerdna said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
That's a supply issue. The bolt production had already been increased by 20% in 2018. They just need to increase production further, but I'm sure they're having trouble with profitability and battery cell supply. The demand is there though.
Is there really a supply issue?

I was pointed to deals in the Bolt thread (which someone on a FB group pointed me to). https://www.martinchevrolet.com/inventory/New-Chevrolet-Bolt_EV/ allegedly has 118 Bolts, presumably mostly or all in stock. Notice the big discounts? (Was also pointed out to me that $1500 of the discount is only for current GM lessees.)

https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/company_info/facilities/assembly/orion.html is running only a single shift. If you go look at their truck and SUV US plants, they're running 2-3 shifts. (Click on Assembly on the right side.)

I can't speak to battery supply though.

Meanwhile, Tesla is decimating everyone else in US BEV sales: https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ w/virtually no discounting.

Indeed Tesla is decimating everyone. But that just points to Tesla being the force behind the mindset change. For the longest time CNBC had been running headlines downplaying TSLA, and now they're starting to change their tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K-iWhW5cSE&feature=youtu.be

All this just supports the idea that we've hit the tipping point.

As for the bolt discounts, those are just for the CARB states, because those ZEV credit requirements have gone up (from 2% in 2018 to 4% in 2019, and ever higher each year: https://insideevs.com/unpacking-the-zero-emission-vehicle-mandate/, https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/4249). So a sale in a CARB state is 3.9 ZEV credits, which is worth at least $5000 to GM. Discounting the cars is a way to control how many are sold into CARB states.
 
^^^
And, keep in mind, AFAIK Tesla still doesn't do leases on the 3 whereas virtually every other EV/PHEV can be leased from the automaker/their leasing arm.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Discounting the cars is a way to control how many are sold into CARB states.
A $5,000+ discount on a new car is required to meet the ZEV sales quota. The quota works out to ~ 1% of Nissan vehicles sold in the CARB states for 2019. Considering that e.g., in California 6% of vehicle sales are plug-ins, the discount shows just how hard it is to move the LEAF.
 
SageBrush said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Discounting the cars is a way to control how many are sold into CARB states.
A $5,000+ discount on a new car is required to meet the ZEV sales quota. The quota works out to ~ 1% of Nissan vehicles sold in the CARB states for 2019. Considering that e.g., in California 6% of vehicle sales are plug-ins, the discount shows just how hard it is to move the LEAF.

The leaf seems to be doing fine globally. Southern US just plain sucks to own a leaf. Now that the 30kwh battery degradation seems to be within normal ranges (as opposed to excessive without the firmware update), I can see the 40kwh leaf holding it's resale value much better and it having a usable life beyond 200k miles.

After my '16 is out of warranty in about 4 years, will be in the market for a used '18 leaf with only 75% battery life remaining. Expecting it to be under 10k and having a usable 80mile range (60% battery life) until 200k miles. The TCO of that should be phenomenology!
 
cwerdna said:
^^^
And, keep in mind, AFAIK Tesla still doesn't do leases on the 3 whereas virtually every other EV/PHEV can be leased from the automaker/their leasing arm.

Yep, that's still the case. I looked into leasing a 3 but since that wasn't available got the Leaf instead.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Besides, the math is already there. The fact that people don't apply it now doesn't mean they won't realize it later.

You're sure the typical auto consumers are on the verge of an epiphany, i.e. will very soon abandon their appeal for an ICEV, right?
And those here in SoCal with F150s will soon trade for a M3. Please!

By the way, why do I see so many M3s stored in a lot on Culver Blvd near the Marina, across from the Tesla distribution center?
Those M3s have been there since the 1/1. Tesla having a problem "moving" M3s in Q1? Tesla has never used that lot before.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
SageBrush said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Discounting the cars is a way to control how many are sold into CARB states.
A $5,000+ discount on a new car is required to meet the ZEV sales quota. The quota works out to ~ 1% of Nissan vehicles sold in the CARB states for 2019. Considering that e.g., in California 6% of vehicle sales are plug-ins, the discount shows just how hard it is to move the LEAF.
The leaf seems to be doing fine globally.
... during the year that Tesla Model 3 was not available.
If the US is any indication, LEAF sales will crater in Europe in 2019. I can think of reasons why not, by the way:

1. Europe much prefers hatch over sedan
2. Europe has a cooler climate and a more favorable view of Nissan TMS-less battery cars
3. The LEAF is cheaper

We'll see. I hope the LEAF has enough success for Nissan stay in the game and actually put some R&D into the car for a change.
 
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