TexasLeaf
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:37 am
Delivery Date: 17 Mar 2018
Leaf Number: 303111
Location: Texas

Re: I'v replaced old 2012 Leaf cells with 2013 cells...

Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:28 pm

Every time I read one of these threads about cell swaps I sounds like whoever is doing the swap is trying to back engineer the battery pack. But every thread I've seen on battery replacements under warranty indicates that the new pack comes completely assembled and just bolts and plugs right in. Replacing battery packs is a standard procedure so there must be a service manual from Nissan that tells you exactly how to install the new battery pack.

The service manual for Leaf battery pack replacement should be easy enough to get ahold of and it's hard for me to believe that no one on this forum has a copy. So what does the service manual for Leaf battery pack replacement say??? Does it say you have to do any reprogramming when you install a replacement battery?

Frankly I'm shocked (no pun intended) that anyone is even trying to replace a battery pack or trying to do any kind of serious repair work on a Leaf without a service manual. So many things are so much harder and so many things can go wrong if you don't follow the service manual.

I usually keep my cars a very long time. Once the cars go out of warranty I usually try to do the repair work myself. One of the highest priorities when my cars go out of warranty is to get my hands on a factory service manual.

I've already located a website where I can by a service manual for my 2018 Leaf; https://www.factoryrepairmanuals.com/20 ... op-repair/. It's going to be a long time, I hope, before I have to worry about doing any of mechanical repairs on my Leaf but I'm still thinking about buying the service manual so that I can find out how things are really put together. There may be a supplement that explains how to do things like replace the battery pack but at least the service manual should tell you how to get your hands on the supplement.
2018 Leaf SL
2015 Ford Fusion Energi Titanium
2007 GMC Envoy XL SLT 4X4

cwerdna
Posts: 9038
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: I'v replaced old 2012 Leaf cells with 2013 cells...

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:14 pm

TexasLeaf wrote:I've already located a website where I can by a service manual for my 2018 Leaf; https://www.factoryrepairmanuals.com/20 ... op-repair/.

The official place to buy the service manual is https://www.nissan-techinfo.com/.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 9038
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: I'v replaced old 2012 Leaf cells with 2013 cells...

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:17 pm

TexasLeaf wrote:Every time I read one of these threads about cell swaps I sounds like whoever is doing the swap is trying to back engineer the battery pack. But every thread I've seen on battery replacements under warranty indicates that the new pack comes completely assembled and just bolts and plugs right in. Replacing battery packs is a standard procedure so there must be a service manual from Nissan that tells you exactly how to install the new battery pack.

TexasLeaf wrote:The service manual for Leaf battery pack replacement should be easy enough to get ahold of and it's hard for me to believe that no one on this forum has a copy. So what does the service manual for Leaf battery pack replacement say??? Does it say you have to do any reprogramming when you install a replacement battery?

The pack (which has a BMS module inside) must be paired to the car.

See
viewtopic.php?p=497035#p497035
viewtopic.php?p=464858#p464858

If it's not paired, the car won't got faster than 25 mph.
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=21997&p=500684&hilit=mph#p500684
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=21997&p=464829&hilit=mph#p464829

And, an entire pack new from Nissan is expensive ($7K+). There's also the issue of the kit needed for newer packs to be used on '11 and '12 Leafs: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&p=374490. And, you can get a pack with the battery warmer or not. Most '11s don't have the warmer whereas all '12 thru '17 packs should have the warmer. And, '13 to '17 packs have 1 less temperature sensor.

There are also some differences between versions of packs.
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=21997&p=488712&hilit=modules#p488712
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=21997&p=500684&hilit=modules#p500684
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=21997&p=500698&hilit=modules#p500698

Please go thru that thread and read the posts by Cor.

If the dealer is going to to a pack swap that's either customer paid or warranty, they will NEVER do the above. They will simply order the correct pack, an adapter kit (if needed), swap packs and pair the new one. There's no reason for them to go thru all the steps that Cor is going thru.

Also see posts by a well-known dealer tech (Aaron) on packs and pack differences. Example: https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattle ... %22R%22%7D.
100% no not interchangeable. The 13-18 Packs have a additional H/V port at the front that will not let the vehicle engage the system main relaysnunless the port is plugged in. The only way to make this work is swap internals but use the older cars bus bars and H/V wiring.

He elaborates further. Search for posts on FB by him in the various Leaf groups.

Often, when someone has a pack that's too degraded and they want another, they have an '11 or '12 (see above differences) and want one that's newer because it has had less calendar loss and likely has a much better chemistry since all the ones built before 4/2013 seem to have a crap chemistry. Ideally, you'd want a model year '15 "lizard" packs from a crashed Leaf that was in a mild climate. 2nd choice would be a 4/2013+ built thru model year '14 pack. But then there are the physical compat problems in both cases.

If someone had a '13 that was past 5 year/60K capacity warranty and down too many bars, then a pack from a '13 thru '15 in a mild climate (so it has less loss) should be suitable. Probably most or all '13s have just recently passed their 5 year/60K capacity warranty. (They were mostly built starting 1/2013 and I think built thru ~12/2013.)

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 9038
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: I'v replaced old 2012 Leaf cells with 2013 cells...

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:06 am


'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

leeoftheleaf4
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:16 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2019

Re: I'v replaced old 2012 Leaf cells with 2013 cells...

Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:48 pm

After reading this thread and a ton of other great threads by cor, mux, the raglan bikes guy, and other youtubers, I have the following plan in my head to retrofit a 6 bar battery on a 2011 leaf with 12kwh and Hx=25%.

-Buy 48 used gen2 leaf battery modules on ebay. (~$3000 - $3500) I estimate that these modules have between 50Ah-55Ah, so 48 of them holds about 18kwh.
-Remove the 6 bar 2011 battery, pop open the case, switch out the 48 gen1 modules for the gen2, while keeping the original wiring, fasteners, and BMS.
-Remove the back seats of the leaf and place the 48 modules in a series on top of where the seats used to be. Then connect these in parallel to the main traction battery through the battery service plug panel by drilling a hole in the battery case, sealing it, and connecting to correct points in the wiring upstream of the precharge circuit.

By removing the back seats and placing the battery there, the increase in weight is 8lbs x 48 modules = 384lbs minus the weight of the back seats, which feels like about 60 lbs, for a net increase of 324 lbs. Furthermore, by placing the modules in a central position instead of the trunk, the rear suspension carries less weight, and does not need to be modified.
By simply wiring the extra modules in parallel upstream of the precharge circuit, there is no need to design an arduino controller connected to the VCM to connect/disconnect the extra modules. It simply discharges and charges along with the main battery. The BMS will not know the difference if the voltage discharge characteristics are unchanged.
I'm thinking that if everything goes as planned, this will result in an 18kwh + 12kwh = 30khw battery for about $3000-$4000
If the old gen1 batteries can't be reused, they can be put back on ebay for solar storage to partially offset the cost of the gen2 modules.

This seems like a great alternative to a $7500 dealer battery replacement and requires only basic engineering skill. My question for you is, am I missing something that could destroy my leaf or kill me in a fire?

I don't want to end up like this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cIo95W-vfE

I also don't want to have an obscure electronic component burn out like this brave modder
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zivzvh9Bx0

brunohill
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 05 Oct 2017
Location: VK3

Re: I'v replaced old 2012 Leaf cells with 2013 cells...

Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:26 am

Just make sure the car is never parked in the sun. It gets a lot hotter inside the car than it does in a box underneath it.

SageBrush
Posts: 3636
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: I'v replaced old 2012 Leaf cells with 2013 cells...

Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:29 am


Am I correct in saying that a pack swap (not the modules) will always require a pairing ?
Has anyone heard of a dealer agreeing to just perform the pairing ?
Has anyone heard of the pairing being performed outside of the dealership ?

Addendum:
These folks in NZ
http://evsenhanced.com/products/hv-batt ... ring-tool/
say they have a pairing solution but no details or price are provided.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

leeoftheleaf4
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:16 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2019

Re: I'v replaced old 2012 Leaf cells with 2013 cells...

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:23 pm

I have another question about extender batteries. What gauge of wire is used for connecting 364 (nominal) volts of battery in parallel? The leaf is 90kw (120hp), so the amperage is 90,000 watts / 364 volts = 247.25 amps. The gauge of wire required to handle 247 volts is a wire that's 0.32 inches in diameter (0 AWG) according to this chart.

https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

That can't be right. That's huge. I don't even think the main high voltage cable is that thick. What am I missing here?

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 11354
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: I'v replaced old 2012 Leaf cells with 2013 cells...

Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:56 pm

Code: Select all

The leaf is 90kw (120hp)


Make that 80kw and 108HP. The gen 2 is 147HP and 109.6kw (max).
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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