cwerdna
Well-known member
Yep. This is most likely the reason.LeftieBiker said:
How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?
- Thread starter jlsoaz
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jlsoaz
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:
I think their short-term bottom line is better. Long-term, Nissan's prospects for profits were (arguably) harmed by selling customers a product that would have a shorter life (moreso in some cases than in others), hold its value less well and which ultimately harmed relationships with some customers. To be fair, air cooling did arguably help to keep things simple, and not just keep costs down, and to be fair, perhaps this helped with safety and maintenance, I don't know.
BTW, fwiw, I have a video somewhere of me pestering a sales person driving a Leaf , while I rode in a passenger seat, with some questions including (if I recall.... it's been some time since I went back to watch it) about battery longevity and the battery warranty. This was about six months before the Leaf went on sale in the US.
Here is is the bottom line: NIssan will screw its customers if at all possible.
The forced consent decree is all the proof any thinking person should need. Want more unnecessary proof ? Shudder at the stories of Nissan refusing battery warranty claims the minute the warranty period is over, including when Nissan pushed the customer just over the deadline. Every other auto company has an informal pro-rating they call 'good-will.' Nissan ? :lol:
Does the past matter, now that a warranty is provided ? Yes, because a warranty is only as good as the intentions of the company that gives it. It is not by accident that Nissan ties the warranty to 'capacity bars' that they control. LEAF owners are so used to poor outcomes that they hardly give notice to the facts that recent cases of '9th capacity bar lost' is occurring around 63% battery capacity, about a 10% drop from the 70% promised by the consent decree.
Some will say, and I agreee, that the current LEAF can be a reasonable buy if the car is priced low and it lives in a cool or cold climate. Make no mistake though: Nissan SUCKS, dealerships are poorly trained in EV service (and getting worse) and expensive, parts are expensive, and CHAdeMO in the US is in zombie mode.
Caveat Emptor
The forced consent decree is all the proof any thinking person should need. Want more unnecessary proof ? Shudder at the stories of Nissan refusing battery warranty claims the minute the warranty period is over, including when Nissan pushed the customer just over the deadline. Every other auto company has an informal pro-rating they call 'good-will.' Nissan ? :lol:
Does the past matter, now that a warranty is provided ? Yes, because a warranty is only as good as the intentions of the company that gives it. It is not by accident that Nissan ties the warranty to 'capacity bars' that they control. LEAF owners are so used to poor outcomes that they hardly give notice to the facts that recent cases of '9th capacity bar lost' is occurring around 63% battery capacity, about a 10% drop from the 70% promised by the consent decree.
Some will say, and I agreee, that the current LEAF can be a reasonable buy if the car is priced low and it lives in a cool or cold climate. Make no mistake though: Nissan SUCKS, dealerships are poorly trained in EV service (and getting worse) and expensive, parts are expensive, and CHAdeMO in the US is in zombie mode.
Caveat Emptor
golfcart
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
These are great points. I wanted to add, since you didn't mention it specifically, that a capacity warranty replacement does not guarantee you a "new battery". This following is taken directly from the 2018 Leaf Warranty Booklet:
So it is entirely possible that you may just get some sort of reconditioned unit that just puts you back to 9 bars. See below for more details.
Leaf Warranty Booklet
I agree it can be a good purchase at the right price for the right market. The car initially costs a good deal less than its competitors but has relatively poor resale and higher than average degradation so you need to consider all those things when buying one. Given everything we have seen up until now, I would be very hesitant to buy any Leaf in a hot climate like Arizona.
golfcart
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
I was addressing the OP specifically since their location says Southern Arizona... but that is a fair point in general.
I'm in SE Virginia, which sees about 35 days a year above 90 degrees (high temperature) and I am seeing about 4%/yr capacity loss on my 2015 S. That said, I do charge to 100% 5 days a week and QC fairly regularly.
WetEV
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
Based on exactly what, Sage?
golfcart said:
So with a 7.5 year expected life, you will only get to 1.5 times the warranty period before a 70% capacity. Shocking... not.
If the 2018 with an 8 year warranty was just as good, you would only get a 12 year life before a 70% capacity. Do explain why that is unacceptable, especially as the 2018 would still have far more capacity than the 2015 did when new.
golfcart
Well-known member
WetEV said:
Perhaps you should take a step back and consider my post before launching into an attack. I at no point said (or implied) that my current rate of degradation was unacceptable, I just stated what it was and offered it as a datapoint in what would be considered a moderate climate in response to SageBrush's assertion that "the climate better be cool or colder". I am very much considering purchasing a 2018 Leaf or possibly an eplus because I have had such a good experience with my 2015 Leaf. 4%/yr degradation is more than a typical Bolt or Tesla owner sees, but given the MUCH lower purchase price of the Leaf I think it still is a better purchase for my needs and given that I wouldn't need to charge a 40kWh pack every day to 100% I might actually see better battery life.
The only judgement I did make was that I would be very hesitant to buy any Leaf in a hot climate like Arizona... which strikes me as pretty non-controversial given the history of Leaf batteries in Arizona and the lack of long term data on the Gen2 40kWh pack or any data on the ePlus pack.
WetEV
Well-known member
golfcart said:
golfcart said:
Doesn't sound like you really do agree with Sage. You are not in a cool or colder climate. Thank you for clarification, and sorry for my misinterpretation of your comment.
golfcart
Well-known member
WetEV said:
I would say that agreeing with someone 100% and acknowledging that something is a fair point are 2 different things. Cool and colder are subjective terms so I can't say a whole lot about exactly what he meant, but I don't think what he suggested is terrible advice for potential Leaf owners given some of the degradation issues people have had.
An expectation of 80% new capacity for at least 10 years, but 15 years would be a lot more reasonable.WetEV said:
Current Nissan engineering amounts to 60-65% by 8 years in a moderate climate. Which nicely explains why the LEAF depreciates like a rock.
smkettner
Well-known member
Disappointed enough to buy a Bolt instead.jlsoaz said:
jlsoaz
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
I kind of like some of this push-back. Part of my point in asking on this topic is that the market has become more competitive than it used to be. When Nissan failed to offer aggressive cooling in December 2010, I was buying in a sellers market and had little choice. The next time I go to buy a used EV, I will be in a different position and, at the least, will be able to consider a used Bolt and one or two other vehicles. The Leaf eplus already is at a severe competitive disadvantage in this particular buying for me, since the price reductions to come with age and miles are 2+ years behind the Bolt. But the lack of liquid cooling also throws up another flag for me as I consider my options, and reflect on the pros and cons of my previous Leaf experience. When the empirical data and reports start coming in on the e-plus and the all-important battery degradation questions, I do hope the Leaf e-plus surprises me and I can perhaps throw it back into the pot for consideration along with the others.
jlsoaz
Well-known member
smkettner said:
Despite the fact that I do not really like the Bolt looks that much, this is probably the answer I am giving myself most often, at this point.
Right now the lowest price is around $24k. Within 150 miles of my zip code, there are only two for sale and the lowest is above $27k:
https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?mdId=36274172&mkId=20053&page=1&perPage=20&rd=99999&searchSource=SORT&shippable-dealers-checkbox=true&showMore=false&sort=price-lowest&stkTypId=28881&zc=85648&localVehicles=false
Once the lowest prices around my zip code get down below $15k, .... maybe below $20k.... then it will be just about time for me to ditch gasoline once and for all. This waiting period will also give me some more time to see if the Bolt is holding up well and how owners are treated who do encounter significant issues with the vehicle as time passes. For example, if the pack or some other major component fails, and if the vehicle or component is past the warranty time period or mile point, then are the drivers quoted reasonable or unreasonable prices for replacing those things out of pocket?
TomT
Well-known member
Simple answer: Give it a pass. Experience has shown that a lack of TMS has been a major Achilles Heel of the Leaf!
jlsoaz said:
Titanium48
Well-known member
Active thermal management would be useful for those of us who live in cold climates as well. We have less of a problem with heat-related premature degradation, but we do have temporary loss of capacity, reduced charge rates (including reduced regenerative braking) and increased internal resistance when it gets cold. A liquid-cooled battery pack could be well insulated and maintain an internal temperature above freezing with minimal energy consumption even when it is -20 or -30 outside, improving winter performance substantially.
iPlug
Well-known member
Agree with others who noted that because of the described battery issues a Leaf buy/lease value can range anywhere from horrible to excellent. We were fortunate to be in the excellent category as having two vehicles, we only needed a second car to guarantee us about 50 miles of range.
We leased our 2016 SL (30kWh, EPA rated 107 miles) for several reasons, one of these being the poor history with battery degradation. Things were about as bad as we feared in the worst case scenario and had our battery replaced under warranty just 2 years into that 3 year lease. Glad we leased. For us, with a total cost of $8,572.84 after all taxes, fees, and incentives, we love the deal we got on our lease. If Nissan wants to offer another sweet deal on a 2019 SL for our next lease, this would be hard for us to pass up.
But we were one of the more educated EV buyers, perhaps the exception compared to the rest of the world that doesn't plug away on forums like this. Pity to the mainstream poor fellows who are not as EV literate, want to buy an EV to keep for longer than the battery warranty, and needs something approaching the EPA reported EV range. Some most unpleasant surprises probably lurk for many of these guys.
We leased our 2016 SL (30kWh, EPA rated 107 miles) for several reasons, one of these being the poor history with battery degradation. Things were about as bad as we feared in the worst case scenario and had our battery replaced under warranty just 2 years into that 3 year lease. Glad we leased. For us, with a total cost of $8,572.84 after all taxes, fees, and incentives, we love the deal we got on our lease. If Nissan wants to offer another sweet deal on a 2019 SL for our next lease, this would be hard for us to pass up.
But we were one of the more educated EV buyers, perhaps the exception compared to the rest of the world that doesn't plug away on forums like this. Pity to the mainstream poor fellows who are not as EV literate, want to buy an EV to keep for longer than the battery warranty, and needs something approaching the EPA reported EV range. Some most unpleasant surprises probably lurk for many of these guys.
WetEV
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
In Arizona, eh? Why not also ask for a flying car?
SageBrush said:
%%% Error 132 %%%, FUD not substantiated by facts.
iPlug said:
Battery likely replaced due to BMS reporting issue.
https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-nissan-leaf-firmware-update-to-correct-capacity-reporting/
Yes, EV literacy is an issue.
With any EV, anyone relying on something "approaching the EPA reported EV range" is going to find unpleasant surprises. Listen to Uncle Sean!
As for keeping an EV longer than the battery warranty, I'm past the battery warranty, have about 90% capacity and all bars. People in moderate climates, most of the USA, should be able to exceed the warranty easily. Hot climates like Phoenix are the risky place: if you just miss the warranty too bad, if you just hit the warranty you should be good to go for another warranty period.
