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EVDRIVER said:
That is because you live int he Bay Area. A screen shade on the car works and the ability to have some warmth in the cold is a bonus without using the heat. Not such an issue here and can be mitigated. I think the roof is more an asset.
The issue isn't whether or not a shade works, it's whether or not I want to have to pay for and use one to provide shade/insulation from sun that is let into the car by an expensive and heavy glass roof that I don't want or need. If someone wants the roof it's their money, and more power to them. I don't, and the car would be less expensive without it.
 
GRA said:
That is definitely not the case for some owners, and I would include myself in that group if I were an owner. Here's one such post on TMC:
It is a very dark tint on the 3. Im not in AZ, but here in MD yesterday it was 44 Deg. F and the temp in the vehicle was 108 Deg. F. The car was parked in the sun, but if that is a preview of things to come, it could be a hot summer inside.

I missed the part of that quote where the 108F temperature was attributed to the glass roof. ;)

Seriously, I am not claiming in any way that the cabin does not heat up. It does, although the cabin overheat protection, if enabled, does keep it at a reasonable temperature at the expense of battery life.

What I am saying is that I don't believe the glass roof is to blame. In the dead heat of the summer I can feel the heat coming in through the side windows on my arms, and when you lean forward or extend your arm forward, through the windshield. But I feel no heat whatsoever through the roof.
 
lpickup said:
What I am saying is that I don't believe the glass roof is to blame. In the dead heat of the summer I can feel the heat coming in through the side windows on my arms, and when you lean forward or extend your arm forward, through the windshield. But I feel no heat whatsoever through the roof.
I had my side windows tinted on my X as I roadtrip and in past vehicles you can easily see that the UV protection in side windows is limited resulting in sunburns (that was in a non-Tesla). Searches find this common.

When my son got this 3, I suggested that as well. Funny point last Fall was that while driving he thought it may be cooler with his driver's windows down. He was quite surprised how hot the sun was without the window (and with the wind even) by comparison to his closed tinted window.

Note it hardly has to be any darkness in tint at all. Even the lightest high quality tints block huge (95-98%) UV.
 
lpickup said:
GRA said:
That is definitely not the case for some owners, and I would include myself in that group if I were an owner. Here's one such post on TMC:
It is a very dark tint on the 3. Im not in AZ, but here in MD yesterday it was 44 Deg. F and the temp in the vehicle was 108 Deg. F. The car was parked in the sun, but if that is a preview of things to come, it could be a hot summer inside.

I missed the part of that quote where the 108F temperature was attributed to the glass roof. ;)

Seriously, I am not claiming in any way that the cabin does not heat up. It does, although the cabin overheat protection, if enabled, does keep it at a reasonable temperature at the expense of battery life.

What I am saying is that I don't believe the glass roof is to blame. In the dead heat of the summer I can feel the heat coming in through the side windows on my arms, and when you lean forward or extend your arm forward, through the windshield. But I feel no heat whatsoever through the roof.
Obviously, solar gain will be through all surfaces, with the glass ones having the most. But the last thing I want is a closer to horizontal than vertical glass roof, especially in the desert southwest, to add to the solar gain through the windshield (and depending on orientation and time of year, the side/rear windows, which I also screen as needed). I already have to use a shade for that. I choose car colors with high albedo to limit the amount of solar gain inside (and that's for an ICE, never mind a BEV), so why would I want to throw that benefit away on a glass roof that I will never want or need that costs me more?

I see that the Model Y is going to have one as well, which would eliminate it for me, if everything on the touchscreen, the length, the price of the LR AWD and the slope of the rear hatch hadn't already done that.
 
Just stumbled across https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/what-happened-to-mr.145988/. Sure enough, mid-range version is no longer listed at https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#battery. Did this just happen today or yesterday?
 
GRA said:
...I see that the Model Y is going to have one as well, which would eliminate it for me, if everything on the touchscreen, the length, the price of the LR AWD and the slope of the rear hatch hadn't already done that.
Oh come now, Guy. No EV will EVER have the right features to satisfy you! Doesn't seem to match your signature: "The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'" — you want perfection in every possible detail, as you define them, and nothing else will do. In the unlikely event that one came close, you would morph your requirements to eliminate it. If the Forester suits you better, that's fine. Others of us "make do" with EVs and have lots of fun with them; I think that you are missing out!

I'd rather not have a glass roof since I prefer the sound and thermal insulation of a conventional roof, as in my current car. But Tesla glass roofs have been out for years now and most people find that they work well and some really like them. If I got a newer car with one, it wouldn't be a big deal — I'd get used to it, it's a little thing.
 
GRA said:
EVDRIVER said:
That is because you live int he Bay Area. A screen shade on the car works and the ability to have some warmth in the cold is a bonus without using the heat. Not such an issue here and can be mitigated. I think the roof is more an asset.
The issue isn't whether or not a shade works, it's whether or not I want to have to pay for and use one to provide shade/insulation from sun that is let into the car by an expensive and heavy glass roof that I don't want or need. If someone wants the roof it's their money, and more power to them. I don't, and the car would be less expensive without it.


Believe me it's not needed. However, even with a steel roof I don't see you buying a Tesla for other reasons so it's a bit moot. They don't make custom cars and those that don't own one seem to have many issues with them for one reason or another but many of those perceptions are wrong. Both you and LorenFb will dwell on Tesla and other things for eternity. Loren's reasons change weekly with the latest that the 3 looks like a Chevy Malibu. Straws----Grasping.
 
GRA said:
... an expensive and heavy glass roof that I don't want or need. If someone wants the roof it's their money, and more power to them. I don't, and the car would be less expensive without it.
Elon says the glass roof makes the car cheaper to manufacturer. The glass roof allows easier access to the cabin for the robots and the glass roof is added after interior work is done. Tesla manufacturers the glass by themselves so that cuts down costs. Glass raw materials are cheap, basically sand that you can scoop off the earth.
 
The glass roof is a marvel of technology. I live in the sunny SW, dislike heat, and still cannot get over how well the roof controls solar gain. The side windows and the windshield sure could use some tinting though.
 
dgpcolorado said:
GRA said:
...I see that the Model Y is going to have one as well, which would eliminate it for me, if everything on the touchscreen, the length, the price of the LR AWD and the slope of the rear hatch hadn't already done that.
Oh come now, Guy. No EV will EVER have the right features to satisfy you! Doesn't seem to match your signature: "The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'" — you want perfection in every possible detail, as you define them, and nothing else will do. In the unlikely event that one came close, you would morph your requirements to eliminate it. If the Forester suits you better, that's fine. Others of us "make do" with EVs and have lots of fun with them; I think that you are missing out!
No, I want an EV that meets my major requirements: one that is "good enough" doesn't have to be perfect. At the moment, no EV meets them, and I am unwilling to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a vehicle that forces me to "make do," given how long I keep a car and that I expect my next car purchase to be my last, giving me a grand total of five in my lifetime. I expect by the time my next car reaches the end of its useful life, rather than buying another I will instead use intermodal MaaS AVs, allowing me to forsake car ownership (given that my driving skills will likely have started to deteriorate by that time due to age, that's a good thing for everyone). I have hopes that BEVs will meet my major requirements in a few years. If the Kia Niro EV had 300+ miles of range, could charge to 80% in 1/2 hour or less, and was AWD, it would probably (have to check that I can lie down stretched out in the back, one of my firm requirements for any car) be "good enough". FCEVs already meet most of my operational requirements (I could make the Nexo work, albeit it's a bit bigger than I'd like and lacks AWD), but still lack the fueling infrastructure and are too expensive.

dgpcolorado said:
I'd rather not have a glass roof since I prefer the sound and thermal insulation of a conventional roof, as in my current car. But Tesla glass roofs have been out for years now and most people find that they work well and some really like them. If I got a newer car with one, it wouldn't be a big deal — I'd get used to it, it's a little thing.
Which is a matter of personal taste and need, and everyone has their own. Could I make a car with a glass roof work? Sure, but see above about making do. I'm very picky about the cars (and other durable equipment) I buy, because I know I'll be putting up with them for a long time. I am not someone who turns over equipment at a high rate just because there's something new out; the new thing has to be significantly better (meeting my personal idiosyncratic needs) than what I already have to get me to switch, and one of the 'good enoughs' for me is value for money over the long term. There's a wide range of ICEs that are "good enough" operationally now, but in a couple of years I expect the same to be true of BEVs and maybe FCEVs. I'm willing to wait, although it pains me to have to delay the out-of-state trips I've been putting off for years now a few more until I can do them in a ZEV. In the meantime, I do more local trips that I can do via mass transit, bike and/or feet, and keep my solo (ICE) driving in-state. I also gave up flying except for emergencies and bucket list items basically at the start of this century, and don't expect to do so again until jet biofuels are widely used.
 
EVDRIVER said:
GRA said:
EVDRIVER said:
That is because you live int he Bay Area. A screen shade on the car works and the ability to have some warmth in the cold is a bonus without using the heat. Not such an issue here and can be mitigated. I think the roof is more an asset.
The issue isn't whether or not a shade works, it's whether or not I want to have to pay for and use one to provide shade/insulation from sun that is let into the car by an expensive and heavy glass roof that I don't want or need. If someone wants the roof it's their money, and more power to them. I don't, and the car would be less expensive without it.
Believe me it's not needed. However, even with a steel roof I don't see you buying a Tesla for other reasons so it's a bit moot. They don't make custom cars and those that don't own one seem to have many issues with them for one reason or another but many of those perceptions are wrong. Both you and LorenFb will dwell on Tesla and other things for eternity. Loren's reasons change weekly with the latest that the 3 looks like a Chevy Malibu. Straws----Grasping.
I agree that I'm unlikely to buy a Tesla, because so many of Tesla's priorities don't match mine. But that's okay, because Tesla has caused all of the other car companies, including those whose priorities are a better match to mine, to also design and introduce BEVs, and I fully expect one of them to come out with a vehicle that would suit me within a few years.

As an example of differing priorities, take rear hatch slope. Tesla prioritizes aerodynamics over cargo volume/height in their CUV designs, and I prioritize it the other way. I want a rear hatch sloped at 60 deg. or more (90 being vertical), both for ease of loading, volume, and so whatever gear in back (and me) isn't exposed to the sun. It also keeps the overall length down, which is valuable to me on some of the one-lane dirt access roads I drive (shorter length, wheelbase and overhangs makes doing a u-turn easier if the road is blocked - having to back 1/2 mile or more to the first place you can turn around isn't something you want to do if it can be avoided.

This is the model car I currently own: https://goo.gl/images/jj4Q8E Not a lot of effort devoted to 'style' and aero takes a back seat, but max utility in the smallest possible size, with excellent sightlines, headroom, cargo area etc. As there are plenty of companies building CUVs with the roofline I prefer, I'll be good to go. Most of my other priorities also skew heavily towards the utilitarian; after all, that's why I want a CUV in the first place (but would prefer a wagon). So far, the most utilitarian Tesla has been the Model S with the metal roof, but it's just too big and expensive for me.
 
DanCar said:
GRA said:
... an expensive and heavy glass roof that I don't want or need. If someone wants the roof it's their money, and more power to them. I don't, and the car would be less expensive without it.
Elon says the glass roof makes the car cheaper to manufacturer. The glass roof allows easier access to the cabin for the robots and the glass roof is added after interior work is done. Tesla manufacturers the glass by themselves so that cuts down costs. Glass raw materials are cheap, basically sand that you can scoop off the earth.
Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.
 
GRA said:
DanCar said:
GRA said:
... an expensive and heavy glass roof that I don't want or need. If someone wants the roof it's their money, and more power to them. I don't, and the car would be less expensive without it.
Elon says the glass roof makes the car cheaper to manufacturer. The glass roof allows easier access to the cabin for the robots and the glass roof is added after interior work is done. Tesla manufacturers the glass by themselves so that cuts down costs. Glass raw materials are cheap, basically sand that you can scoop off the earth.
Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.

I don't think actual buyers share your concerns.
 
GRA said:
dgpcolorado said:
GRA said:
...I see that the Model Y is going to have one as well, which would eliminate it for me, if everything on the touchscreen, the length, the price of the LR AWD and the slope of the rear hatch hadn't already done that.
Oh come now, Guy. No EV will EVER have the right features to satisfy you! Doesn't seem to match your signature: "The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'" — you want perfection in every possible detail, as you define them, and nothing else will do. In the unlikely event that one came close, you would morph your requirements to eliminate it. If the Forester suits you better, that's fine. Others of us "make do" with EVs and have lots of fun with them; I think that you are missing out!
No, I want an EV that meets my major requirements: one that is "good enough" doesn't have to be perfect. At the moment, no EV meets them, and I am unwilling to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a vehicle that forces me to "make do," given how long I keep a car and that I expect my next car purchase to be my last, giving me a grand total of five in my lifetime. I expect by the time my next car reaches the end of its useful life, rather than buying another I will instead use intermodal MaaS AVs, allowing me to forsake car ownership (given that my driving skills will likely have started to deteriorate by that time due to age, that's a good thing for everyone). I have hopes that BEVs will meet my major requirements in a few years. If the Kia Niro EV had 300+ miles of range, could charge to 80% in 1/2 hour or less, and was AWD, it would probably (have to check that I can lie down stretched out in the back, one of my firm requirements for any car) be "good enough".
GRA, I (and others here on MNL including someone who I spoke to personally in the past 6 months or so) am still puzzled by why you spend so much time here on MNL and yet have been unwilling to buy or lease any EV or PHEV

You don't need to spend tens of thousands of dollars. I spent just a bit above that including tax and license ($9,325 + tax and license) on my used '13 Leaf that I still drive today (usually about 3 days/week) but I'm trying to sell. Was my primary car from end of July 2015 until end of Jan 2019. Maybe you'd like to buy it? ;)

I'd wanted an EV for a long time and had wanted a Leaf. I had to delay purchase/lease for a # of reasons until I finally leased my 1st one in July 2013.

I agree w/dgp.
 
GRA said:
Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.

I'm fairly certain there are other examples of companies charging what the market will bear rather than basing it solely on costs of goods.
 
cwerdna said:
GRA, I (and others here on MNL including someone who I spoke to personally in the past 6 months or so) am still puzzled by why you spend so much time here on MNL and yet have been unwilling to buy or lease any EV or PHEV

You don't need to spend tens of thousands of dollars. I spent just a bit above that including tax and license ($9,325 + tax and license) on my used '13 Leaf that I still drive today (usually about 3 days/week) but I'm trying to sell. Was my primary car from end of July 2015 until end of Jan 2019. Maybe you'd like to buy it? ;)

I'd wanted an EV for a long time and had wanted a Leaf. I had to delay purchase/lease for a # of reasons until I finally leased my 1st one in July 2013.

I agree w/dgp.
I've explained many times my reasons why I remain interested but unwilling to buy at this time. Inexpensive BEVs are currently only suited for local/intraregional use. I have no need of a car for local use/commuting, and only occasional need for intra-regional use, preferring to use my feet, bike and rapid transit, all of which are zero emissions (depending on what I eat) as well as more energy efficient than using a 3,000+ lb. vehicle to haul myself around, not to mention the positive health impact for me of engaging in active transportation*.

My sole need for a car is for longer range trips, and it is in that area that current BEVs require spending tens of thousands of dollars, and even then the infrastructure is often sparse to non-existent in the places I wish to travel to, far off the interstates and often the U.S. and state highways as well. Once that changes, I'm good to go. Even better would be the ability to rent a long-range BEV as needed, in which case I could give up car ownership (my ultimate goal) now.

As for not buying a PHEV, I could, but that provides little advantage for me given my typical trip profile; I've run the numbers, and on my typical trip a PHEV would burn more gas than a straight HEV due to the extra weight being carried around (not to mention the often decreased cargo space, which is a major issue for me). It doesn't make sense to get one unless my current car were to die, and I have no desire to exchange one ICE for another (albeit more efficient) one unless I have to.

Failing that, I prefer to wait until I can buy a ZEV to do the transition all at once, and continue to limit my ICE driving in the meantime. That makes by far the most economic and practical sense to me, and doesn't impose the energy and resource impact of making another car - I first want to limit the number of cars built, and only then use the most efficient one. Others may make different calcs, but as dgpcolorado wrote a long time ago, he didn't get a BEV because it made the most economic or practical sense, it was because he wanted one and was willing to put up with the limitations. I am not so inclined - until any car can meet my practical needs it has no value to me, and I'm not interested in buying one to 'make a statement' - I'll leave that to others. In the meantime, I've got my landlord to agree to install a charging circuit if/when Ido get a PEV, and probably even to install PV to serve both the main house and my unit, although that's more tenuous. I'm doing the legwork on that for him, getting quotes and checking specs.



*Active Transportation: https://www.transportation.gov/mission/health/active-transportation
 
EVDRIVER said:
GRA said:
DanCar said:
Elon says the glass roof makes the car cheaper to manufacturer. The glass roof allows easier access to the cabin for the robots and the glass roof is added after interior work is done. Tesla manufacturers the glass by themselves so that cuts down costs. Glass raw materials are cheap, basically sand that you can scoop off the earth.
Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.
I don't think actual buyers share your concerns.
Presumably not, or they wouldn't buy. Actual buyers of Ferraris probably don't share my concerns either. So?
 
SanCarlosJeff said:
GRA said:
Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.
I'm fairly certain there are other examples of companies charging what the market will bear rather than basing it solely on costs of goods.
Of course. This is one potential customer who won't bear it, but others are free to do so if they choose.
 
GRA said:
Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.
Always? It is standard on the Model 3, all models, and has been standard on the Model S for several years. They don't charge extra for it; instead they simplified manufacturing and made it standard across the line.

The glass roof was originally going to be only available on the higher trim levels of the Model 3 but it was very easy to predict that when the SR was released it also would have the glass roof. As, indeed, it does.
 
dgpcolorado said:
GRA said:
Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.
Always? It is standard on the Model 3, all models, and has been standard on the Model S for several years. They don't charge extra for it; instead they simplified manufacturing and made it standard across the line.

The glass roof was originally going to be only available on the higher trim levels of the Model 3 but it was very easy to predict that when the SR was released it also would have the glass roof. As, indeed, it does.
It has been made standard on the M3 now, but it was originally part of the PuP. As you are well aware, the glass roof was an extra cost option on the Model S (forget on the Model X), and was made standard when they discontinued the smaller battery cars and raised the prices, to differentiate the Model S from the top of the line Model 3.
 
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