Fenix Power - Took money and but never delivered

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mcain said:
I pick up my first leaf tomorrow. A used 2013 with QC and solid state of health. For me it’s that the difference between 1st round deposit and 2nd round deposit just isn’t that much money and I doubt think I’ll “need” the service for a couple of years. So, opportunity is there and a bench model is there but i don’t have to pull the trigger.

If you start an indie Gogo page, simply include a perk at $150 and set limit to 100. This will Track the first 100 donors on a log. edit post, for the next round. Edit the perk, make it $300 - track 101-1000. Lots of PAT PENDING items on there all the time.

I’d be more happy giving a charitable contribution to a team of supersmart dudes than entering my credit card on the Felix site and wonder how many years it might be until the tech pans out.

Get a millennial on board with Indiegogo experience, get $250k+ without answering potential investors questions about market potential and get the thing built. I had a great founder once who said the hardest business to double was from 100 to 200.

Thanks for being so dedicated and keeping an open mind. There are 2011-2012 LEAFS I would buy, put in your modules and start renting on TURO today if this was further along. Same for the C5 too- that is going to be a beast.

Again, not a leaf owner yet but super supportive


I appreciate the words of support, and do value your input on crowdfunding. I hope you don't mind a bit of a humorous reply, but I wish that a successful crowdfunding campaign was only as simple as hiring a millenial! I and my team have done extensive research on crowdfunding and what it takes to build a successful campaign, and really there are two components to success with that tactic. The first is you already have significant social traction and brand recognition prior to even beginning the campaign. Thousands of followers and dozens of committed influencers ready to push your campaign at the outset. The second is a compelling and quality product/pitch video. There are of course other factors, one of which is product cost. In searching through 100's of campaigns we found very very few successes with products over $500-1,000 i cost, and absolutely zero successes in either EV or vehicle development in general. And finally, we found very few successes that relied on a reward structure where the rewards weren't much more than schwag (t-shirts, stickers, hats, etc) while trying to fund a product beyond a traditional cost model as mentioned above.

That said, we're not actually ruling out crowdfunding, not at all! We actually have a campaign architected to coincide with our buildup prior to launching installations, and have allocated headcount to build a media campaign based on videos from product testing as well as a video blog documenting the development of the Corvette conversion. You'll begin to see our youtube and other channels start to populate with videos later in the spring, and we anticipate launching a crowdfunding effort in parallel likely mid to end of this summer. Our goal here is to build some social momentum with our current efforts and evangelism, and then leverage the crowdfunding as something of an excitement accelerator, a form of advertising if you will.



I also want to address the comment just above about Vehicle to Grid (V2G) or using EVs as backup power. Just from a technical standpoint, there's no physical reason why we won't be able to support that kind of EV use. An obstacle currently is right now with the LEAF, that's not currently enabled in US vehicles, and from what I've seen is only being used in specific trials in the UK and the EU. I can't say who, but we are working with an outside group who is involved in V2G efforts here in the US, what this means is when the LEAF and/or grid(s) can support it, we'll be there and ready, and we'll likely have already completed testing before then.

And finally, in case people here have missed it, last week we announced a new business partnership! We're working with ChargeShare, an EV charging network startup that has a similar subscription model for their customers and a unique crowd-funding model built into their platform. We're working to integrate their system with ours so that our customers will also get charging access as an additional feature for their Fenix subscriptions. We're thrilled about this partnership as it will provide our customers with one less worry with their EVs. We have other business partnerships in the works, and look forward to sharing those as soon as we can as well. Be sure to join our mailing list to keep up on the latest news: http://fenix.systems/subscribe

-John
 
Leafabout said:
Has anyone searched the address given on Fenix website on google maps? I got The UPS Store when I searched it.

I think UPS offers addresses for rent for you to get mail delivered. Could also be many suites at that address.
 
Nissan and sectec have vehicle to grid units available.
They cost several thousand dollars and have limited intrest.
Seems products are available for markets that don't exist.
 
Oilpan4 said:
Nissan and sectec have vehicle to grid units available.
They cost several thousand dollars and have limited intrest.
Seems products are available for markets that don't exist.


1) Still not marketed well. Very hard to find information and qualified installers
2) Volume is low and price is high
3) Actual power output of the units are very low (7-10 KW), meaning that they can't provide whole house backup
4) Many units only do V2G and not V2Backup.
5) Most US residences don't have Time Of Use metering, which means that time shifting loads has zero impact on energy billing
6) How V2G coordinates with existing solar & battery backup units (SolarEdge, Enphase, etc) is quite unclear. I could find no information or qualified installers that know anything about V2G, let alone how to hook them up to a house to create a whole house backup solution.

That said, the market is there. You can buy a new 60 kWh Leaf for $40k, which is both a car and a battery pack. Or you can buy a Sonnen battery for $16k that has 10 kWh capacity. For 60 kWh capacity, that's $96k--and you can't drive a Sonnen battery. As used 40 kWh Leafs and V2G becomes available, I am absolutely looking at using one to power my house. I can buy a wrecked 40 kWh Leaf right now for ~$7000. Park the junker in my garage or shed, hook it up, and I have a VERY low cost battery.

The applications are there, but there's not good execution (yet). It's like saying that electric cars were a terrible idea 10 years ago. That's starting to change.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Actual power output of the units are very low (7-10 KW), meaning that they can't provide whole house backup

That's enough with a little load balancing (or a lot for an all-electric home).

Typical US homes have a 20-30A central AC. With a fridge and a few lights, that would exceed the capacity.

What do you mean by load balancing?
 
Load balancing is turning off high drain circuits, like electric water heaters, until they are needed, then using them only one at a time or in pairs, plus lights. That 20-30 amp central air circuit likely only pulls 10-15 amps on startup, then half that while running. Does the Leaf to Home unit have a surge rating, or is that the maximum? Sometimes an extended blackout means plugging in a window unit, instead. I once ran our house on a 3500 watt gen that was only providing 1800 watts at 120 volts, for several days, in the Fall. My "big" backup gen now is a ~7000 watt dual fuel unit that I can connect through a 240 volt 30 amp plug on the house. I'd be quite happy with 7500 watts...
 
Then you'd love this:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://procurement-notices.undp.org/view_file.cfm%3Fdoc_id%3D157275&ved=2ahUKEwiR7-7dq6LhAhWhhOAKHcLOCvYQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw0wU_Po_utoFKlAf9fAU6fN&cshid=1553690494192

Magnum Cap V2G. 9.5kVA discharge at 400V AC. You'd need to transformer it to 240 and 110, and you'd have to have relevant disconnects.

I don't know if the Leaf supports it or needs special firmware. I don't know what MY Leafs are compatible.

I don't know anyone who knows how to wire it to US specifications.

I don't know if the device is certified in the US as it's produced in the EU.

I don't know how to coordinate that device with a solar system to provide both battery storage and power.

I don't know if the device only does V2G or can provide backup power if the grid is down.

It costs around $15,000 per unit, plus installation.

If anyone knows answers to these, it would be great.
 
Setec Power can supply a "rated" 3000 watt V2H with CHAdeMO (and claims CCS, however, what EV supports it?). Post 2013 Leaf's are claimed to work (I know one person who has actually proven so). No transfer switch, so not designed to work with the grid, nor will it supply the split phase nominal 120 volt used by US households as it is a 220 VAC (60 hz) unit (at least without a center tapped transformer).

Setec, as of almost two years ago offered me a 10kw unit that has a MPPT solar DC input (CHAdeMO, but not bidirectional) for approx. $10,000. The tech specs were so unclear, I decided not to "experiment" with it. Someone with really good power electronics background might want to look into this - if they will still offer it. It's also possible Setec has made some advancements in this area (bidirectional with Leaf charging protocols?).

Seems most bidirectional V2X units are being applied in Japanese/European environments (e.g. Magnumcap, Nissan's unit(s)). HOWEVER, this is changing rapidly as companies such as Nuvve (and, yes Nissan) are early stages of US based V2X units (not sure that any are V2G yet).

I'm not claiming to be the expert in this arena - just my experience to date - if others have more updated information, please post it as the interest level in a nominal 10kw, V2G/bidirectional EV protocols, US home based unit with solar input and backup enabled is very high (IMO).
 
Lothsahn said:
LeftieBiker said:
Actual power output of the units are very low (7-10 KW), meaning that they can't provide whole house backup

That's enough with a little load balancing (or a lot for an all-electric home).

Typical US homes have a 20-30A central AC. With a fridge and a few lights, that would exceed the capacity.

What do you mean by load balancing?

How old are you?

Back in the day, I remember when A/C was a luxury. In a power outage, that would be the first to go and yeah, in a Virginia Summer (complete with near 100% humidity) it really sucks but at least the food didn't go bad...
 
When the power goes out not many people are thinking let's turn on the A/C, dry a load of laundry, cook a thankgiving turkey and charge the car.

7 to 10 kw is plenty for most people. But I do have a 30hp 18.5kw generator.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
How old are you?

Back in the day, I remember when A/C was a luxury. In a power outage, that would be the first to go and yeah, in a Virginia Summer (complete with near 100% humidity) it really sucks but at least the food didn't go bad...

I grew up in Michigan, and I seem to have almost no tolerance for heat. I get heat exhaustion super easily. :( Pipes would freeze before I would have problems in the winter, though...
 
Lothsahn said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
How old are you?

Back in the day, I remember when A/C was a luxury. In a power outage, that would be the first to go and yeah, in a Virginia Summer (complete with near 100% humidity) it really sucks but at least the food didn't go bad...

I grew up in Michigan, and I seem to have almost no tolerance for heat. I get heat exhaustion super easily. :( Pipes would freeze before I would have problems in the winter, though...
That is my life too, and I spent my childhood in S. California. I had to migrate to the mountains to survive :D
 
SageBrush said:
That is my life too, and I spent my childhood in S. California. I had to migrate to the mountains to survive :D

So jealous. I would move in a heartbeat, but family keeps me here, at least for now.
 
Leafabout said:
Has anyone searched the address given on Fenix website on google maps? I got The UPS Store when I searched it.

Yes, we are currently using a PO Box at a UPS store as a method to retain an address that's stable while we grow here in Charlotte. We chose UPS over the traditional post office PO Box as they offer more digital notification and package handling services than the post office. They also have 24 hour keycard access that's quite handy for us as well. We expect to use that address through the next year or so as we grow and our office and manufacturing needs grow with us.

-John Bysinger
CEO of Fenix Power
 
Lothsahn said:
1) Still not marketed well. Very hard to find information and qualified installers
2) Volume is low and price is high
3) Actual power output of the units are very low (7-10 KW), meaning that they can't provide whole house backup
4) Many units only do V2G and not V2Backup.
5) Most US residences don't have Time Of Use metering, which means that time shifting loads has zero impact on energy billing
6) How V2G coordinates with existing solar & battery backup units (SolarEdge, Enphase, etc) is quite unclear. I could find no information or qualified installers that know anything about V2G, let alone how to hook them up to a house to create a whole house backup solution.

You covered that pretty darn well Lothsahn, if I may I have one more point to add to your list:

Local power regulations are extremely challenging, both for battery and for solar installations. They vary wildly across states, counties and cities around the country. While they are likely well intentioned when they were created, they can become obstacles to many new energy technologies coming to market such as V2x and battery storage. For example, in Florida the laws state that if the grid goes down, any grid-tied solar must also be disabled. This makes quite a bit of sense for the safety of the utility workers trying to restore power after storms, but it's quite counter-productive for emergency power purposes! Having solar paired with home storage is a wonderful solution for a homeowner facing storm-caused common grid outages, but useless if it must be shut off when the power is out. In theory, these are just speedbumps as we progress to smarter grid technologies and will get updated over time. But those updates will move at the speed of government... which may take a while!
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Lothsahn said:
LeftieBiker said:
That's enough with a little load balancing (or a lot for an all-electric home).

Typical US homes have a 20-30A central AC. With a fridge and a few lights, that would exceed the capacity.

What do you mean by load balancing?

How old are you?

Back in the day, I remember when A/C was a luxury. In a power outage, that would be the first to go and yeah, in a Virginia Summer (complete with near 100% humidity) it really sucks but at least the food didn't go bad...

Dave, as a fellow (but now former!) resident of the Pacific NorthWest, I know all too well how uncommon home AC is around there. We used window units when we lived there, though I remember discussing full home units with a friend a couple years back. He was a Seattle native, but lived in Texas for about a decade before returning back to the PNW. When he decided to have a whole house unit installed in the late 90's, he said it was a real challenge to do, most of the contractors weren't familiar with the hardware, the house wasn't designed to be plumbed to the outside heat exchanger, etc. In the 90's I was in a Condo in Bellevue that had AC, it was a popular visiting spot for friends of mine on those rare summer days in the 90's up there!
 
golfcart said:
I put down a deposit and think it's a great idea for the right price to keep a bunch of useful old Leaf out of the junkyard. I don't expect to get my deposit back but I'd like to if I decide to go a different route. It was cheap enough that I was willing to take that risk.

There's two things that'll make or break this for me.

  • When does this actually get to market. I have a window where I'm looking to upgrade which is next fall/winter.
  • How cheap do the gen2 Leaf get? I'm seeing 2018 SV with the cold weather package advertised at $30k in VA right now before incentives. Meaning I can likely negotiate one for under $30k OTD. That's getting real close to the point (maybe already there) where it'd make more sense to sell the 2015 for $10k - $11k and buy a 2018. I'd get newer tech, a better looking car, and an 8 year battery warranty for roughly the same price as 8 years of a Fenix battery service plan at $80 - $100/month or a $6500 Fenix replacement battery + $30/month service plan.

Time will tell... Thanks for keeping us updated as best you can John.


You can get your deposit back if you need to pull out. They say on their website that it's completely refundable.

They have told me that mine should be installed end of 2019.
 
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