lorenfb
Posts: 2218
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Wed May 15, 2019 11:41 pm

cwerdna wrote:
lorenfb wrote:My 2013 never reached temps in excess of 95F,
although I typically only QCed for 15-30 minutes. My present 2013 Leaf datas indicated in my signature. Luckily, my 2013 battery
doesn't have a worse SOH.

knightmb at https://web.archive.org/web/20170717073 ... hp?t=22134 I think has a '13 judging by his VIN and some prior posts. He's gotten his battery to least 131 F (55 C).

I'm pretty sure I've reached battery temps over 90 F just due to high ambient temps w/my current '13 Leaf. My current Leaf doesn't even have a CHADeMO inlet.


Oh, so from the anecdotal data, the implication is that heat soaking a Li ion battery has a marginal long term degradation effect, right?
Based on a sample of one, Leaf owners should discount temperature, e.g. Tucson, AZ owners take note, and focus more on not charging to
greater than 80%.


Did you read the following TomT post?
Last edited by lorenfb on Wed May 15, 2019 11:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F (35C), min discharge (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 25%, temp < 105F

Evoforce
Posts: 884
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Wed May 15, 2019 11:43 pm

metricus wrote:So let's go back to my initial questions:
does anyone have a 2019? does it behave the same? I'd like to understand if my specimen has a problem or i have to just get used to it.


I wish you and others, to not get duped into buying, what amounts to a large battery city car. Nissan did not care to engineer Leaf to be a road trip car even though marketing says it is. The larger American EV market needs a car that they feel is as capable as ICE. The Leafs Achilles Heal is still the battery and its poor design. Also, if Nissan's future is a cabin air cooled battery, that, has proven to be a fail by other manufacturers also. I wish you better luck...
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

cwerdna
Posts: 9358
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Thu May 16, 2019 12:01 am

lorenfb wrote:
cwerdna wrote:
lorenfb wrote:My 2013 never reached temps in excess of 95F,
although I typically only QCed for 15-30 minutes. My present 2013 Leaf datas indicated in my signature. Luckily, my 2013 battery
doesn't have a worse SOH.

knightmb at https://web.archive.org/web/20170717073 ... hp?t=22134 I think has a '13 judging by his VIN and some prior posts. He's gotten his battery to least 131 F (55 C).

I'm pretty sure I've reached battery temps over 90 F just due to high ambient temps w/my current '13 Leaf. My current Leaf doesn't even have a CHADeMO inlet.


Oh, so from the anecdotal data, the implication is that heat soaking a Li ion battery has a marginal long term degradation effect, right?
Based on a sample of one, Leaf owners should discount temperature, e.g. Tucson, AZ owners take note, and focus more on not charging to
greater than 80%.


Did you read the following TomT post?

Who me? I'm not sure what you're implying. I merely pointed to how hot someone got their gen 1 Leaf battery on a hot day by multiple DC FCs in a day. Nothing more was implied.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

lorenfb
Posts: 2218
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Thu May 16, 2019 12:13 am

cwerdna wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
cwerdna wrote:knightmb at https://web.archive.org/web/20170717073 ... hp?t=22134 I think has a '13 judging by his VIN and some prior posts. He's gotten his battery to least 131 F (55 C).

I'm pretty sure I've reached battery temps over 90 F just due to high ambient temps w/my current '13 Leaf. My current Leaf doesn't even have a CHADeMO inlet.


Oh, so from the anecdotal data, the implication is that heat soaking a Li ion battery has a marginal long term degradation effect, right?
Based on a sample of one, Leaf owners should discount temperature, e.g. Tucson, AZ owners take note, and focus more on not charging to
greater than 80%.


Did you read the following TomT post?

Who me? I'm not sure what you're implying. I merely pointed to how hot someone got their gen 1 Leaf battery on a hot day by multiple DC FCs in a day. Nothing more was implied.


Sorry for the tone. We both know well, you more so having owned a Leaf longer, the detriment to battery life that heat is.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F (35C), min discharge (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 25%, temp < 105F

cwerdna
Posts: 9358
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Thu May 16, 2019 12:17 am

^^^
Indeed.

I'm still at 11 bars and SOH around 82%... actually has gone up to high 82's on my used 5/2013 built Leaf at under 65K miles. In comparison, this Phoenician at viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995 w/the same build month as mine lost his 4th bar in late 8/2016.

We have plenty of examples of Leafs faring worse in terms of degradation in hotter climates than cooler ones for a given chemistry/battery revision.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

metricus
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed May 15, 2019 1:51 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Apr 2019
Leaf Number: 307046
Location: Reading, PA

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Thu May 16, 2019 2:31 am

Evoforce wrote: I wish you and others, to not get duped into buying, what amounts to a large battery city car. Nissan did not care to engineer Leaf to be a road trip car even though marketing says it is.


This is exactly what we decided after test-driving both models (plus and regular). We did not need to spend the money on more range as long as our daily commute does not justify it. The Plus is 200 kg heavier and it's like carrying a large backpack every day just bc you need it once in a blue moon. It also has higher energy consumption because of the extra weight.

What we did not know is that we would not be able to QC like we did with the 2016 Leaf. I NEVER saw my temp gauge go up like this one does.

FALSE ADVERTISING = The fact that marketing presents it as a road trip car without specifying that in normal turnpike conditions you cannot count on more than one QC per day.

cwerdna
Posts: 9358
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Thu May 16, 2019 2:41 am

metricus wrote:What we did not know is that we would not be able to QC like we did with the 2016 Leaf. I NEVER saw my temp gauge go up like this one does.

FALSE ADVERTISING = The fact that marketing presents it as a road trip car without specifying that in normal turnpike conditions you cannot count on more than one QC per day.

Out of curiosity, can you point us to the marketing and "false advertising" you speak of?

I'm not aware of anything to that effect but I may be wrong...
metricus wrote:Follow-up on the previous reply: Frankly I think the accuracy of the temp gauge is less relevant at this point. The main problem is the fact that a 220 mile trip caused the car to decrease the charging power to as low as 14 kW. the reason for this is irrelevant for the user.

My problem snowballs after this: EVGO kicks me out after 30 minutes. which means that at a slower power I get less energy in that amount of time.

This means that I have to use my credit card to charge to the level i need which makes the NCTC program a false advertisement.

The temp gauge accuracy and what it represents is of some importance. If you actually had something with precision, you could better identify the sweet spot in terms of speed (in mph) vs. heating the battery vs. not affecting the battery temp vs. actually cooling it. I've been able to observe this w/Leaf Spy Pro on my '13 when outside air temp is considerably cooler than the battery temp.

It would also give you a data point w/some accuracy for actual battery temp to go w/your other data.

The 30 minute session length has been documented at https://www.ez-charge.com/faq for ages. How is it a "false advertisement"? The oldest copy at https://web.archive.org/web/20141110004 ... e.com/faq/ from Nov 2014 also talks about the 30 minutes.
metricus wrote:False advertisement is also the claim that the car can be charged in less than 30 mins on QC because that can only happen once per day if at all. in my case the first charge was at 35 kW not at 43 or "up to 50 kW" as they advertise.

Did they ever advertise you can do two+ fast charges at 43 kW or 50 kW in a single day on a 40 kWh Leaf?

It sounds like your starting SoC was too high on your first DC FC anyway and we don't know the battery temp at that point.
Last edited by cwerdna on Thu May 16, 2019 3:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 12192
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Thu May 16, 2019 3:11 am

Did they ever advertise you can do two+ fast charges at 43 kW or 50 kW in a single day on a 40 kWh Leaf?


You're picking nits. Would you be happy if your Bolt could only do one QC a day, and GM had left that info out of their advertising...?
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 9358
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Thu May 16, 2019 3:15 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Did they ever advertise you can do two+ fast charges at 43 kW or 50 kW in a single day on a 40 kWh Leaf?


You're picking nits. Would you be happy if your Bolt could only do one QC a day, and GM had left that info out of their advertising...?

Not really. OP keeps complaining about "false advertising". I want to actually see what he claims is false.

As for the latter, not really, but I've not looked into GM's advertising and verbiage about multiple DC FCs in a day.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 4217
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Thu May 16, 2019 5:36 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:I'm sure it's a 40kwh Leaf. That degree of throttling of charge rate isn't likely to happen in cool temps with the ePlus.


In theory maybe, but complete reference data using LeafSpy has not been presented on the Plus battery. Some thought that the 40 kWh
battery having more parallel cells (pouches), i.e. for increased capacity, would result in lower battery resistance, thereby developing less
battery heat at higher QCs. That seems to not be the case whether QCing or driving at higher speeds. Given that, one would question
the logical of the Plus' battery being more heat tolerant than the 40 kWh battery.


I never thought that the 40kwh pack would heat any less. The 62kwh pack has the simple advantage of having much more capacity, so with much more chemical "space" available there need not be as much heating per amp of input charge. That isn't to say that the 62kwh pack won't suffer from high ambient heat, from heat produced by hard driving, or even from heat produced by multiple fast charges. It will just take it longer to get hot - and then longer to cool off again.


Same heat but perhaps less temperature rise due to more mass. And I suspect even slower heat dissipation but that is really hard to guess at since some degree of powered cooling is going on and heat dissipation is a complicated topic.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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