HELP deciding whether to buy a Leaf Plus

I pointed this out somewhere else, but Leaf vs. Tesla vs. Niro, etc, debate seems to focus on battery and cooling, but there ARE other factors to weigh.

What type of vehicle do you want? If you want a sedan, the model 3 is probably the best EV at the price you can get your hands on.
But maybe you don't want a sedan, maybe you want a crossover? Or maybe you like the hatchback?

You need to make sure the car will work for you. I got a Leaf 40 KWhr version and I'm in a VERY hot climate. I know what that means.
But the price was SO good, and I don't need to full range (or even close), I went for it. I have nothing to loose. But if the car will work for you and you understand limitations, then there are things that matter other than the brand name. My wife loves the hatchback design. I do NOT like the model 3 interior design - I just don't like it. I love the model X, but I don't have that kind of money. Weigh all the factors.

As I think powersurge said, if it fits your needs and the guidelines he laid out, then it might be a great car for you.

SageBrush said:

WetEV said:

SageBrush said:

^^ and ^^^

Anecdotes are near worthless.

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A collection of anecdotes is just as worthless as a single anecdote.

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.
Learn the difference between anecdotes and statistics

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A collection of anecdotes isn't statistics.
Hint: What makes a valid sample?

Why do you hate the first production EV in modern times so much?

danrjones said:

What type of vehicle do you want? If you want a sedan, the model 3 is probably the best EV at the price you can get your hands on.
But maybe you don't want a sedan, maybe you want a crossover? Or maybe you like the hatchback?

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I dislike the sedan design so much I call it 'brain-dead.' It was almost a deal breaker for me when it came time to decide on a long range EV. I'm happy to report though that the Model 3, while not a hatchback, has not been a sacrifice. The lousy rear-view is more than compensated for by the excellent screen and rear-view camera, and storage space has not been a problem.

So while the Model 3 is a 'sedan,' it does not have the limitations of a sedan. Beware labels, and check out the car for yourself before jumping to conclusions.

SageBrush said:

danrjones said:

What type of vehicle do you want? If you want a sedan, the model 3 is probably the best EV at the price you can get your hands on.
But maybe you don't want a sedan, maybe you want a crossover? Or maybe you like the hatchback?

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I dislike the sedan design so much I call it 'brain-dead.' It was almost a deal breaker for me when it came time to decide on a long range EV. I'm happy to report though that the Model 3, while not a hatchback, has not been a sacrifice. The lousy rear-view is more than compensated for by the excellent screen and rear-view camera, and storage space has not been a problem.

So while the Model 3 is a 'sedan,' it does not have the limitations of a sedan. Beware labels, and check out the car for yourself before jumping to conclusions.

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Exactly, if you like it you like it, if you don't, you don't. But everyone has their own styles they like or dislike. I'm just saying style seems to always be left out of the conversation. Nobody ever asks what style the OP likes. Or more importantly, what style of vehicle his WIFE wants!

Eventually a Tesla minivan will arise, and like Vader, it will have its fans. UPS and USPS certainly would do well with one. But me, I'd pass on the minivan EV because I don't like the style.

On the flip side I find the 'hatchback' design of our LEAF to be poor because the wheel wells impede on the available width.

As with SageBrush, the Model 3 not being a hatchback was our largest sacrifice.

This replaced a 2012 Plug-in Prius, my daily driver and family road trip vehicle. The hatch on that thing was fantastic.

But at only $37k MSRP + destination and tax - Fed Credit, CA rebate, and utility rebate there was no better vehicle for us to replace my daily driver and family road trip vehicle than the Model 3.

We still couldn’t find a better vehicle to replace my wife’s 2016 30kWh Leaf on lease, so went with a 2019 40kWh Leaf, again on lease.

It’s not one size fits all. 2 Model 3s would have cost more with no additional value for us. 2 Leafs would have cost a bit less, but then road trips were no bueno and I missed out on a higher end vehicle.

YMMV.

No car is all positives or all negatives. That comes close to being a straw-man argument. However, a crappy, rapidly degrading battery in an EV is a huge minus that few Americans will choose if they are informed consumers unless the car is dirt cheap. Hatchback or not.

SageBrush said:

No car is all positives or all negatives. That comes close to being a straw-man argument. However, a crappy, rapidly degrading battery in an EV is a huge minus that few Americans will choose if they are informed consumers unless the car is dirt cheap. Hatchback or not.

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Everything must be weighed accordingly. I would never have bought a leaf if it hadn't been so cheap. Even the white base model 3 with auto pilot would have been more than double what I paid for a new leaf. Money does matter.

Had I been faced with paying full price for a Leaf, I would have either done my original plan and gotten one used, or waited to pick up the niro. The Niro ev is still my choice (YMMV) in that 40k range because it comes out cheaper with credits, and I like the style, CCS and battery management, And I do not like the model 3 design inside. Again, YMMV. Insurance and repairs are also much cheaper. I pay about $50 a month for the leaf. My quote for a model 3 was $90 or so. The Niro ev would have been about $60. If I had tons of money, Model X all the way. But that's not reality.

Though to paint a broad picture that all leaf's are crappy just isn't true. There seem to be plenty of happy customers, especially in cool environments, or customers who knew what it could and could not do. I'm quite happy with it as a matter of fact. Transport Evolved just did a review on their 2013 and it still has about 75% of its battery life at 90k miles. Is that as good as one with battery cooling? Probably not. It also cost them a lot less, certainly less than any Tesla.

So, to the OP, weigh it all accordingly.

danrjones said:

Even the base model 3 would have been significantly more than double what I paid for a new leaf. Money does matter.

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Sounds like you got an absolutely incredible deal. There was nothing remotely like that available to us compared to our SR+ which was $2000 above the MSRP base Model 3 at the time.

Also would have to guess you have the lower battery capacity 40kWh (~150 mile EPA) version like our Leaf, not the ePlus that is comparable to the 240 mile EPA Model 3 SR+? Not saying you would need all that range but for the sake of equivalency comparison…

How much did you get your new Leaf for?

danrjones said:

SageBrush said:

No car is all positives or all negatives. That comes close to being a straw-man argument. However, a crappy, rapidly degrading battery in an EV is a huge minus that few Americans will choose if they are informed consumers unless the car is dirt cheap. Hatchback or not.

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Everything must be weighed accordingly. I would never have bought a leaf if it hadn't been so cheap. Even the base model 3 would have been significantly more than double what I paid for a new leaf. Money does matter.

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We seem to agree -- The LEAF can be excellent value if the cost is low enough, crap battery tech included.
And while I agree that a cool climate can mitigate the LEAF battery degradation substantially, that is just the opposite side of the Phoenix coin where the battery is toast in 3 years. I'm talking about the 20 - 80% percentiles of climates in the USA.

As far as cost goes, it is a rare LEAF owner who does not pay for an ICE also. A Tesla is pretty much a full ICE replacement. And lastly, LEAFs reach their end of functional capacity when new much sooner than a Tesla. Take this all into account and I think you will find that the LEAF is hard pressed to be anything but hobbled and expensive. Exceptions do occur.

iPlug said:

danrjones said:

Even the base model 3 would have been significantly more than double what I paid for a new leaf. Money does matter.

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Sounds like you got an absolutely incredible deal. There was nothing remotely like that available to us compared to our SR+ which was $2000 above the MSRP base Model 3 at the time.

Also would have to guess you have the lower battery capacity 40kWh (~150 mile EPA) version like our Leaf, not the ePlus that is comparable to the 240 mile EPA Model 3 SR+? Not saying you would need all that range but for the sake of equivalency comparison…

How much did you get your new Leaf for?

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I had two vehicles already so I was actually looking for a used eV, to get my foot in the door and stop driving my old f150 which sucks gas. My wife has a 2018 outback. I found a bunch of 2015 leaf's at carmax and just before I got one of those I found a bunch of leftover 2018's on a dealer lot. (so yes, the 40 KWhr) With negotiation plus credits I got it for 15.5k OTD. I never intended to use it for trips, and I can accept degradation. The plan was always to trade it in 2-3 years for a newer EV anyway. Monthly payment came out lower than a lease with nothing down. ton more range than I needed for a in-town vehicle. And despite the doom-and-gloom from some here, Nissan does offer a pretty decent capacity warranty. Better than the previous models. For the price I don't think there was anything better. As I said, had I faced full MSRP my choice would have been different. But both my wife and I love driving it.

Heh.
$15k was my best estimate a couple of years ago for a new LEAF that beat a Tesla in the value game.

Like iPlug, my household decided to buy one hobbled EV (used LEAF) and one all purpose EV (new Tesla Model 3 LR) to ditch ICE entirely. We ended up paying $46k between the two cars. Our Alt choice was the same LEAF and to keep our Prius Prime. That would have been a much less expensive choice but I'm glad I took the Tesla plunge. It has been a delightful car, and I'm much happier for having sent my car money to Tesla.

danrjones said:

With negotiation plus credits I got it for 15.5k OTD.

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Which credits? Fed, CA, utility? How much after tax-all credits/rebates?

Can't see how that quite works out to a base Model 3 having been significantly more than double (Model 3 base $35k + destination + tax - $3,750 Fed credit at your time of purchase - $2,500 CA rebate - your utility rebate, if any).

And to be fair, the great deal you got was a rare find on a vehicle that was quasi-"used" by virtue of sitting on a lot so long, and the deal was not standard fare, even for a bargain hunter. A more fair comparison would be to compare to a very low mileage (few hundred miles or less) Model 3 that has been test driven for a week and returned. I see nothing impressive at the moment, but there have been some rare deep discount deals occasionally reported on such Model 3s (https://www.tesla.com/inventory).

Not trying to stir up things, just commonly see folks play fast and loose with vehicle acquisition numbers, and its good to be transparent with as few "apples-to-oranges" comparisons as possible.

All that aside, it looks like you got an exceptionally good deal on your 2018 Leaf. If there were such a find here, we would not have leased our Leaf but purchased at the incredible price you did then resold in a few years for less than lease cost.

More so, that looks to have been both a good financial and practical value for you, so it was an excellent fit.

abruzzopat said:

Thanks in advance for your advice... on the fence about whether a Leaf is right for us. Here is our situation:

Primary driver is my wife who works as a care giver and drives ~35mi/day around town.

However, our concern is this: we share a mountain cabin and drive to it once or twice per month. It is 144 miles from our home. The drive is about 100 mi on open highway, then about 44 miles of rural highway with twists and turns. We live in Charlotte at an elevation of about 600' and the cabin is at about 4600', so lots of climbing. In summer, A/C is a must, and in winter, some heat would also be needed.

This drive consumes a lot of fuel and is the main reason we want to go electric. The stated 225 mile range of the leaf plus seems fine, but we are worried about real world experience after the batteries start to get old.

Do you folks think the leaf is a good choice?

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OP if this is your first EV, I would recommend you consider leasing. The technology for EV's is changing really fast. That way in 3-years if you don't like the car you can just walk away with a Lease and get something different.

I got a 2019 Leaf SV Plus at the end of June on a 3-year lease. I used to have a 2015 Leaf and I wish we had leased the first car.

I recently when through a car purchase and we did look at the Tesla Model 3. We ultimately went with the Nissan Leaf Plus for several reason.

#1-Seats. The Zero-Gravity seats in the Leaf were way more comfortable than the Tesla Model 3 seats.
#2- Ease of getting in-out. My wife has bad knees and she found the Leaf easier to get-in and out of.
#3- Customer Support - I previously had a 2015 Leaf and I had great support from Nissan and my Local dealers. I also have 2xTesla Powerwalls. Soon after install last year one of the powerwalls went bad and it took Tesla over 2+months to get me a replacement in addition to a lot of hassle with phone calls to even get Tesla to acknowledge one wasn't working. If they can't handle support on a $20k power wall install why would I purchase a $50k car from them?
#4- Price - I could get a 2019 Leaf SV Plus for a 3-year lease for around $400/Month including tax lic. I cannot get the same deal with a Model 3.
#5- Every Day Usage - The Leaf Plus covers 100% of our every day driving and then some. We are a two car family and I still have a Honda Pilot that doesn't get driven much.

We do plan to take a look at the Model Y when it comes out to maybe replace our Honda Pilot but we will see. I would like to see some more stability around Tesla for customer support before I spend $50k with them.

iPlug said:

danrjones said:

With negotiation plus credits I got it for 15.5k OTD.

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Which credits? Fed, CA, utility? How much after tax-all credits/rebates?

Can't see how that quite works out to a base Model 3 having been significantly more than double (Model 3 base $35k + destination + tax - $3,750 Fed credit at your time of purchase - $2,500 CA rebate - your utility rebate, if any).

And to be fair, the great deal you got was a rare find on a vehicle that was quasi-"used" by virtue of sitting on a lot so long, and the deal was not standard fare, even for a bargain hunter. A more fair comparison would be to compare to a very low mileage (few hundred miles or less) Model 3 that has been test driven for a week and returned. I see nothing impressive at the moment, but there have been some rare deep discount deals occasionally reported on such Model 3s (https://www.tesla.com/inventory).

Not trying to stir up things, just commonly see folks play fast and loose with vehicle acquisition numbers, and its good to be transparent with as few "apples-to-oranges" comparisons as possible.

All that aside, it looks like you got an exceptionally good deal on your 2018 Leaf. If there were such a find here, we would not have leased our Leaf but purchased at the incredible price you did then resold in a few years for less than lease cost.

More so, that looks to have been both a good financial and practical value for you, so it was an excellent fit.

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Some of this is from memory, so don't crucify me if I get it wrong:
Negotiated price for the SV with Tech and Weather Packages was 26800 ish.

Taxes, Reg and Fees: 2712

Rebates:
7500 fed
2500 state
3000 Air District
1000 SCE
TOTAL: 14k

Loan amount Net: 15512

A Tesla 3 at the time, NON Black with Drivers Aid (whatever it was called), was like 40k. The rebate for FED was only 3750.
So it was approximately 40k + 3900 taxes/fees/reg - 10.25k (rebates) = 33650 net
Add in almost double on my insurance, and it came out in my mind to way more than double the leaf. How about "greater than double"?

As to new vs barely used, actually there is a huge distinction - at least for tax credits. This one was considered new for tax purposes.

As to whether that's an unusually low price I got, I don't know. I know I have seen greater LA dealers already marking 2019+ models down about 4k. I figure you should always be able to get another 2k below what the dealer is asking, to that would be 6k off.

But if you wait until the 2020's are filling the lots, I would think you could score some pretty good deals on 2019's. At that point the dealers want them gone. Get one dealer down 6-7k and bounce it off others. I think its possible. I didn't even work that hard to do it, they just wanted the 2018's gone. If you can live without the new stuff in the 2020's, 2019's should be well priced at that time. But honestly I don't know.

danrjones said:

Some of this is from memory, so don't crucify me if I get it wrong:
Negotiated price for the SV with Tech and Weather Packages was 26800 ish.

Taxes, Reg and Fees: 2712

Rebates:
7500 fed
2500 state
3000 Air District
1000 SCE
TOTAL: 14k

Loan amount Net: 15512

A Tesla 3 at the time, NON Black with Drivers Aid (whatever it was called), was like 40k. The rebate for FED was only 3750.
So it was approximately 40k + 3900 taxes/fees/reg - 10.25k (rebates) = 33650 net

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No crucifixion, that’s just mean. We should be here to share ideas and learn openly and honestly.

So just fair accounting should be in play.

Since we have to compare apples-to-apples as much as possible, the correct Tesla Model 3 (available when you bought your car) was the black SR base at $35k. It may have not been the color you wanted, but you also did not have unlimited choices on a few year old cars sitting on a lot.

So in your case:
Model 3 SR:
$35,000 MSRP
+1,200 documentation and destination
+tax
-3750 fed
-2500 state
-3000 Air District
-1000 SCE

Total $25,950 before tax

Definitely not “significantly more than double what I paid for a new leaf”. We can even ignore that your comparison is against a superior 220 mile range new vehicle that has not been toasting a year on a lot.

Again, the Leaf range was plenty for your needs. No quibbles there and I probably would have done the same as you for our second vehicle. But your numbers were markedly off in comparing to a Model 3 base, and we should keep the numbers honest for folks trying to make an informed decision here and elsewhere.

danrjones said:

Add in almost double on my insurance, and it came out in my mind to way more than double the leaf. How about "greater than double"?

As to new vs barely used, actually there is a huge distinction - at least for tax credits. This one was considered new for tax purposes.

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Still not even close.

The insurance thing is also not correct and bears correction as this zombie insurance myth is often propagated. We have the 2019 Leaf SV and a 2019 Model 3 SR+ with equal coverage. No accidents for either drivers. The Model 3 SR+ costs us 7-8% less to insure. The Model 3 insurance would probably be even cheaper if we had the less expensive base model.

Don't make assumptions. The dealer had four different 2018 leaf's with various colors and options for me to choose.
A black car where I live is a non-starter for me, and so is a car without adaptive cruise control.
the Nissan had both white and fully loaded with the tech package, the weather package, etc
And you want me to compare to a stripped model 3?

So, i'm sorry, but I was correct. why do I know? Because I priced it out at the time. You did not.
I priced out a model 3 and a Niro EV, and the insurance for all three from my insurance company. Taxes too, which you left as an unknown.

It was more than double. The numbers I presented are my numbers and you can't go changing them to suit your argument.



Good grief people here seem to need to argue.

We just priced it out. You are not entitled to your own numbers. The numbers are correct and stand. Your statement was incorrect. I don’t expect you to acknowledge that you were wrong but your mistaken impressions do not supercede the accurate data.