Am I doing much damage?

[Bombastinator2]

I am perhaps as puzzled by this discussion as Drew21. I also am not a commuter and my use can certainly also be termed "irregular". Having said that, I do use the timer method to routinely charge to 80% (or to above 80% if planning an immediate trip where additional range may be needed). Now I will admit that the 62 kwh battery does give me much more flexibility than an older 24 kwh pack - and that was certainly intentional after my experiences with 2 previous EVs.

I got the 40w pack on a 2019. One issue is travel during the set charge time. If it was “charge for X hours” it would be ok because if I had to take the thing out it would just charge a bit longer. The other problem is if I don’t use the car for a day it will charge twice and the second will be 80%-100%

 

[Drew21]

The other problem is if I don’t use the car for a day it will charge twice and the second will be 80%-100%

If you don't drive the car immediately, or don't know when you'll be driving again, can't you just... unplug the charger?

I feel like a broken record, but regarding charging options you have:
1) Selecting the time for the charge to start (good for folks who get reduced electricity rates in certain time windows).
2) Selecting the time for the charge to stop (good for folks who want the car at a specific charge level at a specific time).
3) Manually choosing the start and stop time (good for folks on a less regular schedule; charge whenever and for however long you need).

Each has a purpose and each might be optimal or useless for your specific needs. I feel like you're making this more difficult than it has to be, but again I might not understand your specific needs or situation.

 

[fjord]

Is it just me or are too many people way overthinking pedantic aspects of charging just to squeeze out a marginal change in some aspect of the battery or its lifespan?

Just plug the thing in when it needs charging and unplug it to drive it. That's all.

 

[cornbinder89]

Is it just me or are too many people way overthinking pedantic aspects of charging just to squeeze out a marginal change in some aspect of the battery or its lifespan?

Just plug the thing in when it needs charging and unplug it to drive it. That's all.

Human nature! Go to any internal combustion site and start talking about "oil" and watch the fireworks. Same here with charging. Those that have a cell failure or battery failure will always worry that they caused it.
Very hard to prove/disprove any choice as there are way to many variables to have two identical vehicles/ batteries and have a side by side test.
Sooner or later no matter what, you are going to charge to 100% or discharge to less than 20%.
With a slightly depleted battery, I try to recharge what I use that day, bouncing between less then 100% to whatever. In the year I have been doing it, I have seen no loss in range, but I don't sweat if it makes it to 98% or even shuts down with a full charge.
The car is a car, and for it to be useful, it must work with a little common sense, but not need the "perfect" set of conditions to be met to be useful.
Keep it long enough and you will have to charge to 100% to make the trip you used to make at 80%.

 

[Bombastinator2]

If you don't drive the car immediately, or don't know when you'll be driving again, can't you just... unplug the charger?

I feel like a broken record, but regarding charging options you have:
1) Selecting the time for the charge to start (good for folks who get reduced electricity rates in certain time windows).
2) Selecting the time for the charge to stop (good for folks who want the car at a specific charge level at a specific time).
3) Manually choosing the start and stop time (good for folks on a less regular schedule; charge whenever and for however long you need).

Each has a purpose and each might be optimal or useless for your specific needs. I feel like you're making this more difficult than it has to be, but again I might not understand your specific needs or situation.

I could I guess…. It’s a big plug…. I’d have to know though. Most times I don’t. Manual would be best for me but even then I’ve got to know I am going 4 hours before I do, if it just had a “stop charging at 80%” it would always work though. I can get it up to like 2/3rds of the time with timed stuff, but sometimes there isn’t enough to get where I’m going and sometimes it misses and I wind up charging to 100%. It’s just so unnecessary.. and it still requires extra BS. So I gave up on it. I don’t use it at all and just charge to 100 every time. I’ll have the thing till it dies or I do in any event.

 

[Lokaim]

I could I guess…. It’s a big plug…. I’d have to know though. Most times I don’t. Manual would be best for me but even then I’ve got to know I am going 4 hours before I do, if it just had a “stop charging at 80%” it would always work though. I can get it up to like 2/3rds of the time with timed stuff, but sometimes there isn’t enough to get where I’m going and sometimes it misses and I wind up charging to 100%. It’s just so unnecessary.. and it still requires extra BS. So I gave up on it. I don’t use it at all and just charge to 100 every time. I’ll have the thing till it dies or I do in any event.

Sounds like you need higher range.
I get multiple trips in town before it gets to 30-20% and then I charge to ~80% (soon to be defunct JuiceBox), or I charge it sooner if I know I have a bigger trip the next day.
It's not practical if you need the full range often and can't destination charge for cheap.
In that case I'd buy a EV with a larger battery or a hybrid.

 

[Wrench7747]

Sort of. The problem, is I never know when I will be driving. So if I set the thing for, say between midnight and 6am it works until I decide I need to go to the grocery store at 2am and it screws everything up.

How is that going to screw things up? Just plug it back in when you get home from the grocery store at 3am. So you get 5 hours of charge that night instead of six. That's not going to hurt anything, for your next random outing around town. At 6am you're still going to charged a lot, and the next night will equalize everything.

 

[fjord]

Human nature! Go to any internal combustion site and start talking about "oil" and watch the fireworks. Same here with charging. Those that have a cell failure or battery failure will always worry that they caused it.
Very hard to prove/disprove any choice as there are way to many variables to have two identical vehicles/ batteries and have a side by side test.
Sooner or later no matter what, you are going to charge to 100% or discharge to less than 20%.
With a slightly depleted battery, I try to recharge what I use that day, bouncing between less then 100% to whatever. In the year I have been doing it, I have seen no loss in range, but I don't sweat if it makes it to 98% or even shuts down with a full charge.
The car is a car, and for it to be useful, it must work with a little common sense, but not need the "perfect" set of conditions to be met to be useful.
Keep it long enough and you will have to charge to 100% to make the trip you used to make at 80%.

Gearheads will be gearheads, ICE or EV, true.

 

[Bombastinator2]

Sounds like you need higher range.
I get multiple trips in town before it gets to 30-20% and then I charge to ~80% (soon to be defunct JuiceBox), or I charge it sooner if I know I have a bigger trip the next day.
It's not practical if you need the full range often and can't destination charge for cheap.
In that case I'd buy a EV with a larger battery or a hybrid.

If I need higher range then there is a problem. I could have gotten away with a 24kwh vehicle.

 

[Lokaim]

If I need higher range then there is a problem. I could have gotten away with a 24kwh vehicle.

Maybe I misinterpreted some of the prior posts.
If someone routinely drives down from 100% to turtle mode in a day and is worried that a middle of the night trip will impact charging back up to 100% for the next day's usage... Then they have too little range for their usage and it will get harder over time from capacity loss.

Can you reduce the question down to essential requirements or specific question?

 

[cwerdna]

That's not gonna hurt anything, but is actually the recommended way to use lithium battery packs, i.e. charge them up, then use them.

The prohibition about holding at 100% is for long durations, there is a graph somewhere showing the degradation after holding for 1 year.

There are many studies showing degradation depending on SoC over time. Attached an example from page A1874 of https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/2.0411609jes/pdf.

As I mentioned at https://mynissanleaf.com/threads/how-to-limit-charging-to-80.33868/page-2#post-636279, Nissan moved to NMC. I also point to a Dr. Dahn recommendation there. From part of his https://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/people/jeff_dahn/cv.html at:
"Selected Accomplishments

Helped pioneer the development of the lithium-ion battery.
A world leader in the development and understanding of carbonaceous materials for use in lithium-ion batteries.
Over 630 publications in refereed journals and 65 separate inventions with associated issued patents and patents pending. According Web of Science: H-index = 92 as of Feb. 21, 2016.
Co-inventor of Li[NixMnxCo1-2x]O2 0 < x < 0.5 (called NMC) class of positive electrode materials now used world wide in Li-ion cells. Many Li-ion cells made today use NMC positive electrode materials.
Maintain one of the largest and most advanced university laboratories in the world devoted to studies of all aspect of lithium-ion batteries.
Developed “High Precision Coulometry” and other advanced diagnostics which allow decades long lifetimes of Li-ion cells to be ranked in experiments that last only a few weeks.
Two spinoff companies, DPM Solutions and Novonix have successfully emerged from the Dahn group at Dalhousie University. "

https://mynissanleaf.com/threads/how-to-limit-charging-to-80.33868/page-3#post-636876 may also help.

 

[2011RedLeaf]

Fffffff…. If this is the case why don’t they have a stop charging lower thing then!? I don’t have a choice. I don’t commute so the timer system isn’t effective for me. This pisses me off.

The early years of the Leaf had an option to stop charging at 80% vs 100%. A couple other cars had it too. Problem was that the EPA would only allow claiming the 80% range, instead of 100% range. 65 miles instead of 82 or something like that.

 

[cwerdna]

The early years of the Leaf had an option to stop charging at 80% vs 100%. A couple other cars had it too. Problem was that the EPA would only allow claiming the 80% range, instead of 100% range. 65 miles instead of 82 or something like that.

Close.
https://www.autoblog.com/news/2013-nissan-leaf-revealed-gets-75-mile-range-actually-84-in-n
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...lectric-car-84-mile-range-aroundview-standard

We don't know why Tesla has been allowed to get away with having a selectable % charging limiter and MANY (most?) non-Nissan BEVs now have one too. My former '19 Bolt did and Bolts from that point on have a target charge level screen in 5% increments. IIRC, min was 40% and max was 100%. My '22 Niro EV has two limiters, one for DC FC and the other for AC charging: 50 to 100% in 10% increments, just like other HyunKias of that era. I'm pretty sure all HyunKia BEVs still have it and have had it for awhie.

 

[Bombastinator2]

The early years of the Leaf had an option to stop charging at 80% vs 100%. A couple other cars had it too. Problem was that the EPA would only allow claiming the 80% range, instead of 100% range. 65 miles instead of 82 or something like that.

So why does Tesla do it? Maybe they changed the law? If they haven’t they should. An 80% switch would rock my world.

 

[cwerdna]

So why does Tesla do it? Maybe they changed the law? If they haven’t they should. An 80% switch would rock my world.

They have UI affordances like on non-LFP cars. Most Teslas are not LFP.

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-BEE08D47-0CE0-4BDD-83F2-9854FB3D578F.html - search for daily.

You can see 80% being mentioned at https://insideevs.com/news/702888/tesla-cybertruck-v3-supercharging-test/.

If you are curious about other automakers, see https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/b...-e-g-80-for-daily-usage-recommendations.56439. You will need a free account there to see the post.

(skip to 0:36) is what it looks like on '22 Niro EV. Again, the min allowed via the slider is 50%.

 

[BillAinCT]

So why does Tesla do it? Maybe they changed the law? If they haven’t they should. An 80% switch would rock my world.

I've seen Teslas backing up and then moving forward with absolutely no pedestrian warning sounds. The law didn't change on that.

 

[BillAinCT]

Did I miss something in this information? I don't see any degradation increase storing below 20%. But there is more degradation in discharging and charging from 5% to 20%?

 

[nlspace]

Holding or storing for 10 months at various temperatures caused capacity reduction, see chart.

This is obviously not the same as charging to 100%, then taking it off charge and driving to work.

You can't "save up" a battery to extend it for use later, it is a wasting asset. if you need it, use it. When it's used up, replace the battery and keep going.

 

[Bombastinator2]

I've seen Teslas backing up and then moving forward with absolutely no pedestrian warning sounds. The law didn't change on that.

Maybe wirecutters

 

[Bombastinator2]

Did I miss something in this information? I don't see any degradation increase storing below 20%. But there is more degradation in discharging and charging from 5% to 20%?

My understanding is if you charge 20-80 the battery lasts longer. Rechargeable batteries have minimal loss over time but it’s not zero. If the charge drops below a minimum amount the battery cannot be recharged. Rechargeable batteries are usually filled 50% at the factory then shipped. If a car has 5% charge I don’t know how long it would take (months? Years?) but the battery would drop below that level.