Diesel Heater installation

[yootsvik]

Hi everyone,

I posted this over on the USA Facebook group, but figured I would post it here as well...

This week I installed a Chinese diesel heater in my 2011 leaf. My 2011 leaf has a 40kwh battery from a 2018 donor.

It has cost me less than $100 for the whole heater project (+my time). I found the heater on Facebook marketplace for $40.

So Anyway, the PTC heater is broken. I decided to "replace" the factory heater, with a chinese diesel heater, and it has so far, been amazing.

I was not interested in spending $1000 for the new replacement part, and then having a horrible time replacing it, all for it to probably fail again because they suck.

I mounted it on the rear facing side of the aluminum front bumper. I had to order an extra long duct from china. And also had to buy a smaller fuel tank (2.5L).

The idea was to feed the heat output duct, directly into the air intake , under the wipers.

The hardest part was cutting a duct hole in the air intake metal lower tray. But a grinder did quick work of that... You have to remove the metal tray to do this, which means removing the wipers.

Maybe hardest part was actually getting through the firewall, to run the controller into the cabin... Maybe not worth doing since I have a remote control anyway?

Stay tuned, we still haven't gotten too cold yet here in west michigan USA.

I'm not sure why I can't add more images, must a safari browser thing...

 

[yootsvik]

more pictures

 

[cornbinder89]

Having live with Eberspatcher heaters for years, I know they can do a good job even in -25F temps.
Those Chinese are copies of the Webasto and Eberspatcher heaters, I have no idea how good the copies are compared to the original.
The heaters are NOT designed to be mounted like that. There are supposed to be mounted in the cabin away from the weather with only the metal oval on the bottom passing through to the outside.
With the exhaust so near the fresh air intake, you may fume yourself out in slow traffic.
Your car, your risks, but I would not be comfortable with that install.
I do feel however that the idea of a combustion heater for these cars is a good one. These heaters do a very good job of converting the energy in the liquid fuel into heat, and don't burn much fuel.
Of course the "zero emissions" thing goes out the window, but it is only zero if you recharge from solar or wind anyway.

 

[Drew21]

Adding to what cornbinder said, I would also be concerned about your install location blocking air flow to the radiator. It's probably not an issue over the winter but could become one next summer.

 

[yootsvik]

Having live with Eberspatcher heaters for years, I know they can do a good job even in -25F temps.
Those Chinese are copies of the Webasto and Eberspatcher heaters, I have no idea how good the copies are compared to the original.
The heaters are NOT designed to be mounted like that. There are supposed to be mounted in the cabin away from the weather with only the metal oval on the bottom passing through to the outside.
With the exhaust so near the fresh air intake, you may fume yourself out in slow traffic.
Your car, your risks, but I would not be comfortable with that install.
I do feel however that the idea of a combustion heater for these cars is a good one. These heaters do a very good job of converting the energy in the liquid fuel into heat, and don't burn much fuel.
Of course the "zero emissions" thing goes out the window, but it is only zero if you recharge from solar or wind anyway.

Respectfully, these heaters can safely be installed in many scenarios that don’t involve being inside the heated area. Have you not seen the portable units?

You should probably educate yourself on these things by going over to YouTube and searching for “Chinese diesel heater”

I have three of these and they all work perfectly when burning off-road diesel. Kerosene might be cleaner tho…

The biggest consideration is dealing with the exhaust and intake.

Anyway, the air intake is actually significantly separated from the exhaust by the 1/4” thick underside panel. The CO monitor in the cabin shows 0 when stationary. I’m not planning on extending the intake somewhere unless I need to.

 

[cornbinder89]

You should probably educate yourself on these things by going over to YouTube and searching for “Chinese diesel heater”

Respectfully, I have been installing Espar (Eberspacher) heater for a lot longer than the Chinese ones have been around, I overhaul them and did installs, I know a bit more about them than YouTube likely does.
Again, your car your health your choice, but I would not be comfortable with that install.

 

[yootsvik]

Respectfully, I have been installing Espar (Eberspacher) heater for a lot longer than the Chinese ones have been around, I overhaul them and did installs, I know a bit more about them than YouTube likely does.
Again, your car your health your choice, but I would not be comfortable with that install.

You suggested that the only proper installation is to install the heater within the heated space. That is ridiculous and does not make you sound like an expert on these things. Also claiming that you know more about them than YouTube is even more ridiculous.

If you have a legitimate safety concern, please suggest improvements

 

[benjwhite9]

People! This has so far been a very informative and cordial thread. Let's try not to let this degenerate into a ***-for-tat.

 

[cornbinder89]

If you have a legitimate safety concern, please suggest improvements

1) your placement of the fuel tank above the heater is very dangerous. The fuel tank must always be below the level of the heater. There are many reasons for this, but the biggest one is that a break in the line will not syphon the fuel. In otherwords in a front end crash this could dump the fuel on an already bad situation. There are other "operational" reasons for having the fuel tank below.
2) The placement of the exhaust is such that a curb or other item could transmit the "hit" to the heat exchanger, cracking it and allowing combustion gases to the heated air.

As I have said, I have been installing these for decades (1980's)(Espar's) in commercial vehicles (trucks and parlor coaches) and have the manuals. Yes, I do feel I know more about them then YouTube.
The rest of the of the issues are more of a "how long it will last/how well it will work"?

It sounds like you bought this "used" off the internet without any of the installation instructions.
When heaters are mounted external to the place they are heating, they should be mounted in a weather resistant box, with the return air and heated air ducted to the place to be heated and the combustion air and exhaust run outside the box. Both Espar and Webasto made and sold boxes for that exact purpose. They were often used for heating "box trucks" freight boxes.
Again, the idea is a good one, the installation needs some more work.

Again, I can't speak to how well the Chinese clones are made, but one concern on all air heaters is cracking of the heat exchanger.

When at all possible I preferred to use the liquid (coolant) heaters for installs where people were going to be, as it eliminates a cracked heat exchanger poisoning the passengers. Which is not to say the air heaters can't be safe for heating people, just that the installation can make it safe or not, depending on the quality of the install.

 

[yootsvik]

1) your placement of the fuel tank above the heater is very dangerous. The fuel tank must always be below the level of the heater. There are many reasons for this, but the biggest one is that a break in the line will not syphon the fuel. In otherwords in a front end crash this could dump the fuel on an already bad situation. There are other "operational" reasons for having the fuel tank below.
2) The placement of the exhaust is such that a curb or other item could transmit the "hit" to the heat exchanger, cracking it and allowing combustion gases to the heated air.

Thanks for elaborating…

1) Can you provide documentation on the fuel tank placement? Everything I’ve read on it suggests to place the tank above or slightly above the heater, so that air bubbles gravitate towards the fuel tank. Diesel is maybe one of the safest fuels because of its high flash point. It doesn’t instantly turn into a fuel-air bomb like gasoline does. So I’m much more comfortable with this situation vs ICE, because I don’t have highly explosive fuel lines running under the front hood. Additionally, due to the tiny 4mm inner diameter of the fuel line, the fuel doesn’t pour out when disconnected, it drips very slowly. 2liters is apparently not enough volume to behave any differently.

2) I designed the exhaust in a way that it can telescope/compress up to about two inches if it were to be bumped hard. Regardless, wouldn’t my CO detector go off if the heat exchanger became cracked?

3) The heater is actually pretty well protected from rain and the elements. But even if it did get ruined, I can easily find a cheap replacement. Considering they sell these for outdoor use (I’m talking about the portable all in one units that ship with the fuel tanks mounted above them), they appear to be accommodating to weather.

 

[cornbinder89]

I can provide information on the Espars as that is what I installed. I can also provide reference to the motor vehicle laws on not having fuel supply above the device. (fuel must be pumped, can't flow by gravity)
Reasoning is that anything that would cause fuel to spill (broken line, smashed heater etc) the fuel will automatically drain back into the tank, not spill onto the engine/heater etc. It is a fail safe, that doesn't require any sensor or input to go into safe mode in an accident. Even in a "roll over" the fuel spilled would be limited to what is in the pipe, and not the whole tank.
The Espar's have a remote fuel pump that has to be mounted between 15 deg up to 90 degs up (outlet pointed up), with 15-35 deg being the preferable mounting but up to 90 (straight up and down) permissible.
As I said, I was installing and repairing these on Motor Coaches, and that opens up a lot of liability, so followed the laws and went with Espar, which had ITS, GS and CE ratings (similar to UL rating), as long as I installed per the directions, I couldn't be held responsible for heater related injury.
I don't know about your Chinese heater. I have no idea if they comply with the requirements, or are just sold and it is on you.
As far exhaust, I would have put a pair of 90 deg and flex exhaust so any hit will not transmit force to the heater itself. Any forces are not likely to be only in the up and down but have some side pressure as well.
Those are my safety concerns.

The rest of my concerns are about heater longevity and how well it would work, but are not safety related.
The heaters I installed were used hard and required Maintenace every 1.5-2 seasons, and they were installed in factory housings and followed the recommended installation requirements. The boxes were on rubber mounts to keep vibration from being transmitted to the heater, the box kept snow/ice/rain and most important, road de-icer off the heater itself.
Most often it was the blower motor that needed attention after a while, the glow plug and heater screen (a wire mesh that keeps the flame burning once the glow-pin is shut off) were next, along with a good de-carburizing of the burn chamber.
Espar and Webasto were so well designed that they also made gasoline and LP versions. The gasoline was almost identical, with only the metering pump being different for the different fuel.

Other than that, I think a combustion heater make a great addition to an EV. While it isn't "zero emissions" it make very good use of the fuel/ emissions it does have.

 

[cornbinder89]

CFR 393.67, covers fuel tanks on motor vehicles.
I copied/paste from the regs

(d) Gravity or syphon feed prohibited. A fuel system must not supply fuel by gravity or syphon feed

 

[JKokeM]

Hello Yootsvik, with this setup how warm does it get inside during the winter temps? Do you run the car's fan also?
I am in the process of installing mine.

 

[cornbinder89]

Those combustion heaters will drive you out in a big truck, they will be plenty for a car. You'll likely only need the car fan for defrost.