Discouraged by 2013 resale value

[Drew21]

Any battery based on current tech that you could easily move from your car to your apartment to charge would not be large enough to provide (psychologically) useful range. Then we would be right back to scary articles and Youtube videos saying things like "the Nissan TotesEV has only 40 miles of range. Anyone caught dead driving this vehicle will literally die on the side of a snowy road!"

Most products you can buy are marketed to some subset of the population and only usable by a portion of the population. Porch swings are only useful to people with porches. Even if they cost $1, folks without porches probably wouldn't buy many. Slip-N-Slides are only useful to limber youth with access to water and a bit of a downhill slope. Unfortunately now that I have water and my only downhill slope I'm no longer as limber or youthful as I used to be. Bummer.

Lower income folks are pretty much locked out of all markets, mostly because of how much money it costs to be poor. For example, if you have a couple kids figure out how many loads of laundry you do per week. Now figure out how much that would cost (in time and money) at your local laundromat if you can't pull together enough money at one time to afford a washing machine.

 

[Bombastinator2]

Any battery based on current tech that you could easily move from your car to your apartment to charge would not be large enough to provide (psychologically) useful range. Then we would be right back to scary articles and Youtube videos saying things like "the Nissan TotesEV has only 40 miles of range. Anyone caught dead driving this vehicle will literally die on the side of a snowy road!"

Most products you can buy are marketed to some subset of the population and only usable by a portion of the population. Porch swings are only useful to people with porches. Even if they cost $1, folks without porches probably wouldn't buy many. Slip-N-Slides are only useful to limber youth with access to water and a bit of a downhill slope. Unfortunately now that I have water and my only downhill slope I'm no longer as limber or youthful as I used to be. Bummer.

Lower income folks are pretty much locked out of all markets, mostly because of how much money it costs to be poor. For example, if you have a couple kids figure out how many loads of laundry you do per week. Now figure out how much that would cost (in time and money) at your local laundromat if you can't pull together enough money at one time to afford a washing machine.

True given current battery technology.
It would have to be something a lot smaller than a modern car. Even something like a Gwhiz would be pushing it. (Heh. Pushing. Heh. There are probably a few of those still in canals. Also there seems to be no Beevis emoji.) Some sort of micro or something with a 45mph max one drives with a scooter license. I saw one designed for wheelchairs. 1 Door in back. No seats. It was 7k. One would need batteries to be more than 50% more energy dense for it to even start being viable for a “real” car. A 40mi battery is ok in a plug in hybrid though. I could see, say, a plug-in hybrid with two 25mi packs on the bottom that are removable and have wheels that slide out like drawers and could be attached to each other to make a tallish 4 wheel “cart” that looks a bit like a footlocker on it’s end and fits easily in an elevator. One could even put little motors in the wheels and sensors in it so it could follow you around like a dog. They put a whole scooter in a Honda once. You have a serious point though. Hauling a 500kg battery around is a no-go. A module couldn’t be much bigger and heavier than a couple 12v lead-acid car batteries and no more than two modules.

 

[Drew21]

Not sure you've done a recent survey of the American population, but the majority of adults probably can't push or pull, and certainly can't lift, anything as big or heavy as a couple 12v car batteries. Even if a random apartment-dweller has an elevator, there's a good chance they'll have to negotiate a few steps somewhere in the transition from vehicle to apartment.

Based on everything I've seen in the marketing and commentary about EVs, there's no appetite from manufacturers or consumers for a new vehicle with reduced range. I'm not saying that plenty of people, especially in urban/suburban contexts, wouldn't be well-served by a small vehicle with 20-30 miles of range, but I don't think any major manufacturer is going to offer something like that with the selling point being that you can pull the battery and charge in your living room.

Regarding plug-in hybrids, there was an article a while back about the Chevy Volt in Road and Track (or Car and Driver or Motortrend) about how most owners, who presumably purchased a plug-in hybrid vehicle with the capability to go tens of miles on electricity alone, had never once plugged the car in and fully charged the battery. My point is that most people don't put a lot of thought or planning or logic into their decisions. They just want the red one or the one with the lift kit and truck nuts dangling from the rear bumper.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

It is what it is. Why discouraged? Great for buyers. If you bought yiur 2013 new SV $32,600 msrp and now $4000. The above new price does not include $7,500 tax credit. Round number $25,000. Over 11 yrs $21,000 depreciation. New battery? $9000 to $14,000 used pack may be up grade from 24 to 40 kW pak. Assume 40 kW 80% near 150mi range best case.

Honda Accord LX (basic) $23,300 MSRP. Avg used today $9,800. That is a $13,500 depreciation. Difference is Honda can go coast to coast easily. Engine and Transmission? Say 10k miles or 140,000 miles. You can expect to get another 100,000 miles. What if trans or Engine dies? With so many on road a salvage yard will sell you Eng + Trans for $2,000.

Yep there are pros and cons to everything. EV less (no) oil changes, filters, coolant. Depending on how you drive energy savings (cost of charging vs gasoline) about 30% saving, may be 65%. Depends on fuel prices and your electricity rate (commercial fee based Electify America may cost more). Does $10,000 more in depreciation pay for that? Likely not.

Money saving EV's are not. Environ? Rare earth materials, energy to mine, refine, transport (all big deisel heavy equipment), manufacture and doubious recycling, plus electricity to charge an EV still produced by coal, is up for debate.

I'm FOR EV's as a free market free will choice. I'm against forcing it on people or Gov giving tax money away to buyers and manufacturers of EV's. Some people an EV does not fit their needs. With wide power outages from natural disaster or no power if we become dependent on wind and solar EV is a bummer. True gas stations have issues but one generator can power a bunch of fuel pumps and "charge" UCE vehicles in minutes from empty to full with over 600 mile range to get out of danger and sit in traffic for hours when evacuating.

 

[Bombastinator2]

Not sure you've done a recent survey of the American population, but the majority of adults probably can't push or pull, and certainly can't lift, anything as big or heavy as a couple 12v car batteries. Even if a random apartment-dweller has an elevator, there's a good chance they'll have to negotiate a few steps somewhere in the transition from vehicle to apartment.

Based on everything I've seen in the marketing and commentary about EVs, there's no appetite from manufacturers or consumers for a new vehicle with reduced range. I'm not saying that plenty of people, especially in urban/suburban contexts, wouldn't be well-served by a small vehicle with 20-30 miles of range, but I don't think any major manufacturer is going to offer something like that with the selling point being that you can pull the battery and charge in your living room.

Regarding plug-in hybrids, there was an article a while back about the Chevy Volt in Road and Track (or Car and Driver or Motortrend) about how most owners, who presumably purchased a plug-in hybrid vehicle with the capability to go tens of miles on electricity alone, had never once plugged the car in and fully charged the battery. My point is that most people don't put a lot of thought or planning or logic into their decisions. They just want the red one or the one with the lift kit and truck nuts dangling from the rear bumper.

Push as in slide? They’ve actually got strap handles on them… I used to be able to do two in each hand though I’m not expecting that. It’s why I was saying they would want wheels attached. If they were the size of a single car battery wheels wouldn’t even be needed.

 

[GentleGiant]

It is what it is. Why discouraged? Great for buyers. If you bought yiur 2013 new SV $32,600 msrp and now $4000. The above new price does not include $7,500 tax credit. Round number $25,000. Over 11 yrs $21,000 depreciation. New battery? $9000 to $14,000 used pack may be up grade from 24 to 40 kW pak. Assume 40 kW 80% near 150mi range best case.

Honda Accord LX (basic) $23,300 MSRP. Avg used today $9,800. That is a $13,500 depreciation. Difference is Honda can go coast to coast easily. Engine and Transmission? Say 10k miles or 140,000 miles. You can expect to get another 100,000 miles. What if trans or Engine dies? With so many on road a salvage yard will sell you Eng + Trans for $2,000.

Yep there are pros and cons to everything. EV less (no) oil changes, filters, coolant. Depending on how you drive energy savings (cost of charging vs gasoline) about 30% saving, may be 65%. Depends on fuel prices and your electricity rate (commercial fee based Electify America may cost more). Does $10,000 more in depreciation pay for that? Likely not.

Money saving EV's are not. Environ? Rare earth materials, energy to mine, refine, transport (all big deisel heavy equipment), manufacture and doubious recycling, plus electricity to charge an EV still produced by coal, is up for debate.

I'm FOR EV's as a free market free will choice. I'm against forcing it on people or Gov giving tax money away to buyers and manufacturers of EV's. Some people an EV does not fit their needs. With wide power outages from natural disaster or no power if we become dependent on wind and solar EV is a bummer. True gas stations have issues but one generator can power a bunch of fuel pumps and "charge" UCE vehicles in minutes from empty to full with over 600 mile range to get out of danger and sit in traffic for hours when evacuating.

The only major countries still using lots of coal to generate electricity are also the most backward - the USA, China, and India.

The UK switched off it's last coal station recently - but it was only providing tenths of a percent of our generation capacity anyway.

 

[Bombastinator2]

The only major countries still using lots of coal to generate electricity are also the most backward - the USA, China, and India.

The UK switched off it's last coal station recently - but it was only providing tenths of a percent of our generation capacity anyway.

Speaking as an American That’s an entertaining way to put it. I don’t often think of the USA as an especially backward nation. It’s not an unreasonable statement though. Britain and Taiwan also have lots of coal. They use it less now though. And Britain not at all. This might be a question of how much coal a given country has and how cheap it is. Britain didn’t have the “rolling coal” thing which was an attempt to reinvigorate dying coal towns, and a potential leader claiming such a thing was even possible. Which goes to backward I guess. The problem it seems is the stuff is so dang cheap compared to other sources. A coal plant is just much much cheaper to build than a nuclear or solar one. It might be health insurance. Coal mining is dangerous. Who bears that cost would change the cost of mining.

 

[GentleGiant]

Speaking as an American That’s an entertaining way to put it. I don’t often think of the USA as an especially backward nation. It’s not an unreasonable statement though.

America likes to think it is at the bleeding edge of technology, but although many areas of advanced technology ARE developed in the US; the average US resident is a Luddite who refuses to stop using their Iron Age implements.

They cant even get trains right.

 

[Bombastinator2]

America likes to think it is at the bleeding edge of technology, but although many areas of advanced technology ARE developed in the US; the average US resident is a Luddite who refuses to stop using their Iron Age implements.

They cant even get trains right.

Well we did at one time. Remember trains more or less built the US. They just got abandoned for aircraft. Britain is too small for aircraft to be effective internally. China and India have their bleeding edge aspects too. China does batteries, and solar, while India weirdly does dyes and Inks. If Taiwan is counted as part of China, it also does electronics. America does have a stupendously lousy school system. The etymology of the term Luddite is ironic in this case. Britain was the most backward of the original EU nations and part of why it left the EU. I remain amuse d
by a pic I saw once of a Finnish official looking at trump with an annoyed “you sad backward little man. Don’t even talk to me” look on her face. Finnland. A country smaller than some US states where they herd and eat reindeer.

 

[GentleGiant]

We do still have a few regional flights, but yeah, by the time you have got through security, a train or even car is faster.

The US train network is like a Chinese apartment; it was built - but then nothing done to it ever again - until it falls apart and gets demolished.

 

[Bombastinator2]

We do still have a few regional flights, but yeah, by the time you have got through security, a train or even car is faster.

The US train network is like a Chinese apartment; it was built - but then nothing done to it ever again - until it falls apart and gets demolished.

Part of that was intentional. When passenger aircraft were developed the train companies were offered the chance to build airports but refused it. Passenger trains would have died entirely in the US but for amtrack. Cargo trains are still done and still work well in the US. Passenger trains are treated and behave as something of an afterthought though. It used to be that passenger trains had the right-of-way and cargo trains would pull to the side and wait for them. Now the reverse is true. Pullman no longer really exists as a company, even though they were at one time by far the most advanced passenger cars in the world.

 

[MikeinPA]

When passenger aircraft were developed the train companies were offered the chance to build airports but refused it.

Whut?

 

[Bombastinator2]

Whut?

What I was told. It’s why pan-am was created. The train companies wanted nothing to do with aircraft.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

The only major countries still using lots of coal to generate electricity are also the most backward - the USA, China, and India.

The UK switched off it's last coal station recently - but it was only providing tenths of a percent of our generation capacity anyway.

Most backwards? Ha ha ha. Did you notice space X catching a rocket yesterday? Did you miss almost every major technology in last 100 yrs was from backwards USA with more Nobel Prizes second to none by a factor of x4. What great advanced forward country are you from? BTW World Coal users, China 50%, India 11%, USA 8%, Germany 3%, Russia 2.7%, Japan 2.5%, South Africa 2.4%, South Korea 1.8% and the other approx 20% produced by 40 other countries like advanced forward North Korea and Uzbekistan. Ha ha. USA is a big country and produces things the World benifits from. Take that Gretta Thunburg. Ha ha.

 

[Bombastinator2]

Most backwards? Ha ha ha. Did you notice space X catching a rocket yesterday? Did you miss almost every major technology in last 100 yrs was from backwards USA with more Nobel Prizes second to none by a factor of x4. What great advanced forward country are you from? BTW World Coal users, China 50%, India 11%, USA 8%, Germany 3%, Russia 2.7%, Japan 2.5%, South Africa 2.4%, South Korea 1.8% and the other approx 20% produced by 40 other countries like advanced forward North Korea and Uzbekistan. Ha ha. USA is a big country and produces things the World benifits from. Take that Gretta Thunburg. Ha ha.

Greta Thurnberg is iirc Finnish or Icelandic or something. History and NOW are different things. I agree that tying A backward behavior to general backwardness is a mistake. There are photos of India installing a US made nuclear pile using the stacked beam elevation method (something as old as the pyramids) because there wasn’t a crane in the nation heavy enough to lift the thing. Doesn’t change the fact that they are a world leader in inks and dyes. Baliwood dance numbers are apparently affecting Hollywood as well (I personally see this as detrimental, but not everyone does). Deployed Train technology in the US is more or less 1950’s (about the time of that panam thing) though there has been some movement, and the US is about where Britain was in the 1970’s regarding coal. I would add that France has some far superior commercially deployed nuclear stuff as well. American politics has actually been going in reverse in fits and starts since about 1980, and is apparently approaching 1938, which is stupendously damaging to nations besides the US. That doesn’t affect the stuff mentioned by @gmcjetpilot though. I personally find the political reverses by the US, China, Russia, and Britain to be highly frightening.

 

[Sparkland]

Most backwards? Ha ha ha. Did you notice space X catching a rocket yesterday? Did you miss almost every major technology in last 100 yrs was from backwards USA with more Nobel Prizes second to none by a factor of x4. What great advanced forward country are you from? BTW World Coal users, China 50%, India 11%, USA 8%, Germany 3%, Russia 2.7%, Japan 2.5%, South Africa 2.4%, South Korea 1.8% and the other approx 20% produced by 40 other countries like advanced forward North Korea and Uzbekistan. Ha ha. USA is a big country and produces things the World benifits from. Take that Gretta Thunburg. Ha ha.

India does not even have clean water for their citizens, now that is backwards.

 

[Bombastinator2]

India does not even have clean water for their citizens, now that is backwards.

For some of them. Neither do a lot of countries. Basically any country that has an isolated rural population that uses well water. Germany for example. Lack of clean water for even part of its citizenry is a telling blow. It depends heavily on how large a percentage that is. In Germany and the U.S. It’s tiny. Still, though attempting to conflate is still attempting to conflate. If I drink milk anywhere in England I will get sick. Even some milk products are not safe. (Shelf stable milk ironically is not one of them) This is also true of more-or-less true of everywhere in the world BUT the United States. Another yardstick is whether a country is listed as ldeveloped” or not. The us Germany, England and South Korea are. China, India, and north Korea are not. Parts of all of them absolutely are though. There are places in China where you can cause a major sensation by driving a motorcycle because a lot of people there have never seen one. None of them are the “1st tier cities” though.

 

[MikeinPA]

What I was told. It’s why pan-am was created. The train companies wanted nothing to do with aircraft.

Trains are notoriously unreliable on the transoceanic routes pioneered by Pan Am. Something to do with how train tracks don't float very well.

 

[Wrench7747]

India does not even have clean water for their citizens, now that is backwards.

If only they had clean water like Flint, Michigan (and many other places in the US).

 

[GentleGiant]

Most backwards? Ha ha ha. Did you notice space X catching a rocket yesterday? Did you miss almost every major technology in last 100 yrs was from backwards USA with more Nobel Prizes second to none by a factor of x4. What great advanced forward country are you from? BTW World Coal users, China 50%, India 11%, USA 8%, Germany 3%, Russia 2.7%, Japan 2.5%, South Africa 2.4%, South Korea 1.8% and the other approx 20% produced by 40 other countries like advanced forward North Korea and Uzbekistan. Ha ha. USA is a big country and produces things the World benifits from. Take that Gretta Thunburg. Ha ha.

I'd like to see your list of great US inventions; USians get taught much the same as Russians and Chinese - that they invented everything; meanwhile :-

You couldn't get a rocket off the ground without using captured Nazi scientists.

Your nuclear program was built on top of, and with the aid of, British and Polish scientists.

Your best WWII fighter plane was based on a British design, and powered by a US made, British designed engine.

You use jet turbine engines invented by the British.

Ditto, the light bulb.

Ditto Television, although the tech is a mix of UK and German engineering.

Most of those Nobel Prizes were won by 1st/2nd immigrants - which is hilarious, as you have been trying your best for the last 30+ years, to stop immigrants from entering the US.