Great! where did you find that? I looked on their website and could find no tech info on it at all. I did find that they 1st came out with a 15 Kw version, which might be better suited for residential use.
Fermata FE-20 approved by Nissan
- Thread starter Chad E. Mo
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Pg 41 480v three phase!
I didn't see anything about any way to throttle it back, So no installing in lower configurations.
I did notice when I was looking that a FE15 was produced as well, not sure if this replaced it or is concurrent.
I didn't see anything about any way to throttle it back, So no installing in lower configurations.
I did notice when I was looking that a FE15 was produced as well, not sure if this replaced it or is concurrent.
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Roly Stanley
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Our street transformer is 1000kVA. Who “throttles” that? Not on my switchboard. 1000/240~=4000A but I have no loads combined capable of drawing more than ~40A, it doesn’t care what kVA is.
Simplified P=IV. Disregarding pf.
Simplified P=IV. Disregarding pf.
henrydehoja
Well-known member
The 3-phase system makes sense for a device of that size. It matches what other V2X devices of similar size are using:
https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/bidirectional-ev-chargers-review
It looks like the FE-15 came first and was used for V2X trial runs:
https://fermataenergy.com/article/n...ger-and-v2x-platform-for-use-with-nissan-leaf
The FE-20 was later developed as an upgrade by the parent company, Heliox, for Fermata Energy:
(see Does Fermata Energy have their own chargers?)
https://fermataenergy.com/faq
Again, CAN does not equal DOES.
Because it probably wasn't designed by chimpanzees? Heck, even the barely functional chinese grid-tied inverters are configurable and throttleable. In fact, point me towards ANY grid-tied system that can't throttle. I'll wait.
It will supply/accept exactly what it's TOLD to, up to a 20kw max. There isn't a grid-tied system in the world (or really any inverter at all) that doesn't have the ability to limit. Something not grid-tied is inherently limiting – it simply tries to reach a voltage target. If there's no load, it's easy, if there's too much load, it won't make it and will probably cut out or complain. With grid tied, it's a little more complicated, but they're REQUIRED to follow the incoming AC and derate all the way up to turning off completely based on frequency shifting. There are also building/UL/etc codes requiring devices to be configurable with respect to load/generation. For example, the Tesla Powerwalls and Wall Connectors both have settings, and used to have (maybe still?) a PHYSICAL control for throttling because that was required by silly law.
No, I'm very much not. You're mistaking me for someone who isn't an engineer who designs electronic systems.
Again, 20kw is not that much. Yeah, it'd be on the big side, but anyone with two powerwalls is close (on the generation side) and anyone with electric tankless is likely past it. That said, this unit is obviously gonna be three-phase 480v.
^^^ This is awesome, thanks for posting it. Yeah, not too many homes with 3-phase 480v drops. I actually considered trying to get PG&E to upgrade me to that (commercial grid-tie inverters are SOOOOO cheap!!!!) but I knew that'd be an uphill battle.
On a side note, for those looking for a less snarkier answer to throttling, you can go read up on UL 1741SA, one of the specs that governs grid-support for devices that push to the grid. For even more fun, check out this image:
You know, just in case you want a cheat-sheet for the specs I'm referring to. =)
Interestingly, it seems Fermata's first with this product.
https://www.ul.com/news/ul-solution...ul-9741-and-ul-1741-sa-ai-driven-vehicle-grid
(and ugh, did they really have to tag on a completely meaningless "AI-Driven" to this?)
In the context of what we were discussing it, in homes, the issue of control, may have been better expressed by "end user down-rateable". I will concede that would have been a better term to use. Yes, they are controllable, not so much by a home user if it was installed in a home. That was the point.
Regardless, code will require the install to be to the full output. The whole 1st page (of this thread) is in relation to residential, and until Mikein PA came up with the manual, nothing in the press release nor on the companies website pointed to the spec's and therefore the intended end use. I looked for it!
15KW would be about the biggest system residential could/would use on single phase.
I am well aware that systems don't run at full capacity at all time, that is not the issue, however the installation must be to full capacity in terms of cabling and controls. That was the issue being discussed.
A far as I have read in the manual there is no way to "down rate" the system such that it could be cabled and used on a smaller circuit with UL cert.. Given the intended sales target, that is of no surprise.
I wonder how many corporate fleets run enough Chademo-Leaf vehicles to make it worth the install? There is a big difference between being able to shave 20Kw on a huge industrial load, and being able to on a residential house. One would be a blip, the other would be able to carry close full load, or at least shave a much bigger proportion during peak use.
Regardless, code will require the install to be to the full output. The whole 1st page (of this thread) is in relation to residential, and until Mikein PA came up with the manual, nothing in the press release nor on the companies website pointed to the spec's and therefore the intended end use. I looked for it!
15KW would be about the biggest system residential could/would use on single phase.
I am well aware that systems don't run at full capacity at all time, that is not the issue, however the installation must be to full capacity in terms of cabling and controls. That was the issue being discussed.
A far as I have read in the manual there is no way to "down rate" the system such that it could be cabled and used on a smaller circuit with UL cert.. Given the intended sales target, that is of no surprise.
I wonder how many corporate fleets run enough Chademo-Leaf vehicles to make it worth the install? There is a big difference between being able to shave 20Kw on a huge industrial load, and being able to on a residential house. One would be a blip, the other would be able to carry close full load, or at least shave a much bigger proportion during peak use.
MikeinPA
Well-known member
Some quick number to estimate how much storage could be built out based on ~ 300,000,000 registered vehicles in the US. If say 40% of these were EVs and half of these plugged in that would be 60,000,000 V2G vehicles online at any time. If 30 kwh was the average available storage for these plugged in EVs, and cycled once per day, that is 1.8 terawatt hours per day, or about 20% of the daily US electrical production of 8 terawatt hours.
Every time I see a school bus, I think V2G storage. One could possibly pay for the new busses just through arbitrage income in some markets.
https://fermataenergy.com/article/c...-ev-charging-hub-launches-in-british-columbia
Every time I see a school bus, I think V2G storage. One could possibly pay for the new busses just through arbitrage income in some markets.
https://fermataenergy.com/article/c...-ev-charging-hub-launches-in-british-columbia
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MikeinPA
Well-known member
Next time I am recovering from surgery, and can't get out of bed for a week, I'll read that through!
There are a lot of good ideas, and I think small scale (consumer based) stuff can and should play a roll. From a marketing point of view better to hit the big users 1st, but in the end spread out and diverse players will make it more reliable.
unshortness
New member
Crap. Stupid 480V 3 phase. Why does Canada have to have a different 3 phase voltage?
All the postings above are very interesting, even though, not being an engineer, much of it is over my head. A lot of what is stated seems to indicate this product is for commercial use, as it requires larger capacity than is usual in most homes. From what the press release indicated, one would gather it is primarily intended for home use, as I would doubt there are very many Leafs in commercial use. Am I mis-interpreting what is being posted, or is the initial Nissan press release misleading? And when do you suppose there will be info available on where and when this can be purchased, and how much it will cost?
It defiantly wasn't clear in the press release. 20 Kw or even 15KW is right at the cusp of what would be considered "too large" for residential, which made it even more murky as to the intended end user. MikeinPA's post of the manual (which I looked for and couldn't find) puts the thing in prospective.
I too am puzzled as to who the thing is marketed for? A large fleet of Leaf's that are stationary during peak power times, has got to be a very small pool of situations.
A 15Kw set-up that could run during peak residential power-use hours then charge overnight, would seam to have a bigger customer base.
May be this is why these types of things are so slow to materialize in the market? The situation where it fits is so small that it doesn't pay for the development.
I too am puzzled as to who the thing is marketed for? A large fleet of Leaf's that are stationary during peak power times, has got to be a very small pool of situations.
A 15Kw set-up that could run during peak residential power-use hours then charge overnight, would seam to have a bigger customer base.
May be this is why these types of things are so slow to materialize in the market? The situation where it fits is so small that it doesn't pay for the development.
unshortness
New member
Based on that manual, this thing is designed for a three phase 480V service which is not used in residential construction in North America. 20kW is a great size for a residential service but most homes in North America are split phase 240V and will not be compatible.
rolandy
New member
FE-20 requires 480V, 60Hz, 3-phase service
Yes, we know that now, after MikeinPA found the manual. At the time that was written we didn't have access to the spec's.
again, 20kw is just fine, and pretty standard for residential. what’s totally disingenuous is them claiming 480v 3-phase is suitable for anything except commercial.
MikeinPA
Well-known member
Do they make 480v 3 phase to 240 volt single phase transformer? I looked, but the terminology is beyond my patience. You either know this transformer stuff cold, or you are lost.
No, not really. It is theoretically possible by making triple core transformer wound the same way generators that can be wound for both single and three phase using all winding. It will still de-rate the power a bit.
In practice, none are made that I know of, it would be a custom wind on three bobbins.
It comes up a lot in generator circles.
For residential use, it would make more sense to make it single phase at the inverter.
If you are really interested in the problems and limitations you can read about some of the issues here:
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/three-phase-to-single-phase-via-transformer.109272/
In practice, none are made that I know of, it would be a custom wind on three bobbins.
It comes up a lot in generator circles.
For residential use, it would make more sense to make it single phase at the inverter.
If you are really interested in the problems and limitations you can read about some of the issues here:
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/three-phase-to-single-phase-via-transformer.109272/
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