Gen 1 vs Gen 2, 62kWh Degradation, and other questions

[BuckleSpring]

Hey all, first post here

As a brief introduction: I'm very mechanically inclined (one of my main cars is a Jaguar XJS V12), I'm also familiar with electrified vehicles (have owned maybe 5+ Prii and rebuild packs for them as a bit of a side business), and have done some minor work on non-Leaf EVs.

My daily driver is getting to the point where I think it's reaching EoL and I've been looking at options to replace it. The car at the top of my list was/is the Gen 1 Leaf 24kWh... The range is no problem for my normal driving, I have other cars for longer distances, home charging, etc... Plus with all the parts availability and community support it seems like a great option, and I can find them with relatively healthy batteries (9 or 10 bars) for under a few thousand dollars.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find or experience a Gen 1 Leaf yet so I have no idea if I'd like it or find it comfortable.

While contemplating this, I decided to look at the Gen 2 market since i qualify for the used EV incentive, and found that you can get a Gen 2 for a very reasonable price. You can also get a Bolt for a similar price as well.... However, this past weekend, I decided to go test drive a 2020 SV Plus locally, and I came away very impressed. It looks better than the Bolt, it's more comfortable, had more space, interior was laid out more logically and just felt better made. Only thing I didn't like was the Torque limit below ~35mph. And, although most would consider this a downside, the air cooled battery and old tech just made everything seem so simple... Like I feel that if the battery developed an isolation issue or something, I have confidence that I could pull it out and service it in my driveway if need be, not to mention the lack of... anything going on in the engine bay.

Here's where my Gen 2 question is: How's the degradation curve on the 62kWh packs looking? I found an SL Plus with the Cold Weather Pkg (I think), all the options I'd want, and a super affordable price for sale ~6 hours north of me.... buuuut it's high mileage, and with it being so far away, I can't exactly hook up Leaf Spy to it to see how many DC charges it's had, SoH, etc. I emailed the dealer asking for a picture of the battery capacity in the gauge cluster, but from what I understand, the Gen 2 won't drop a bar on that gauge until something ridiculous like 82.5% capacity correct? Also, being a Cold Weather Pkg car presumably (2019 SL+ w/ heated seats), it has a heat pump correct? What's been the reliability on the heat pump? How's the efficiency/range with vs without it?

A cheap Gen 1 would do all my driving needs perfectly fine.... But the more modern-ness of the Gen 2, with the vastly better range, newer battery, etc... I have considered just shelling out the money for it, but it would have to do more than the 30mi/day of a Gen 1 to make the added cost worth it to me.

 

[Stanton]

In general, the Gen2 packs have performed much better than the Gen1 packs (see sig). The only reason I would buy a Gen1 Leaf is if it had a Gen2 pack in it...so you should stick with your Gen2 search.

 

[BuckleSpring]

The only reason I would buy a Gen1 Leaf is if it had a Gen2 pack in it

There is the price delta, that's what I'm currently trying to decide. A Gen 1 24kWh with a healthy battery can be had sub-$3k. The high-mileage Gen 2 I'm looking at is listed for ~$11.5k. The range limitations of the Gen 1 24kWh aren't a big deal for me since 90% of my driving is within 30 miles and i have other cars

 

[Bombastinator2]

Hey all, first post here

As a brief introduction: I'm very mechanically inclined (one of my main cars is a Jaguar XJS V12), I'm also familiar with electrified vehicles (have owned maybe 5+ Prii and rebuild packs for them as a bit of a side business), and have done some minor work on non-Leaf EVs.

My daily driver is getting to the point where I think it's reaching EoL and I've been looking at options to replace it. The car at the top of my list was/is the Gen 1 Leaf 24kWh... The range is no problem for my normal driving, I have other cars for longer distances, home charging, etc... Plus with all the parts availability and community support it seems like a great option, and I can find them with relatively healthy batteries (9 or 10 bars) for under a few thousand dollars.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find or experience a Gen 1 Leaf yet so I have no idea if I'd like it or find it comfortable.

While contemplating this, I decided to look at the Gen 2 market since i qualify for the used EV incentive, and found that you can get a Gen 2 for a very reasonable price. You can also get a Bolt for a similar price as well.... However, this past weekend, I decided to go test drive a 2020 SV Plus locally, and I came away very impressed. It looks better than the Bolt, it's more comfortable, had more space, interior was laid out more logically and just felt better made. Only thing I didn't like was the Torque limit below ~35mph. And, although most would consider this a downside, the air cooled battery and old tech just made everything seem so simple... Like I feel that if the battery developed an isolation issue or something, I have confidence that I could pull it out and service it in my driveway if need be, not to mention the lack of... anything going on in the engine bay.

Here's where my Gen 2 question is: How's the degradation curve on the 62kWh packs looking? I found an SL Plus with the Cold Weather Pkg (I think), all the options I'd want, and a super affordable price for sale ~6 hours north of me.... buuuut it's high mileage, and with it being so far away, I can't exactly hook up Leaf Spy to it to see how many DC charges it's had, SoH, etc. I emailed the dealer asking for a picture of the battery capacity in the gauge cluster, but from what I understand, the Gen 2 won't drop a bar on that gauge until something ridiculous like 82.5% capacity correct? Also, being a Cold Weather Pkg car presumably (2019 SL+ w/ heated seats), it has a heat pump correct? What's been the reliability on the heat pump? How's the efficiency/range with vs without it?

A cheap Gen 1 would do all my driving needs perfectly fine.... But the more modern-ness of the Gen 2, with the vastly better range, newer battery, etc... I have considered just shelling out the money for it, but it would have to do more than the 30mi/day of a Gen 1 to make the added cost worth it to me.

The torque limit is to save tires I think. It helps but the thing still uses up tires like a high hp sports car which it kind of is. The car I had previously was a GTI autobahn. Most powerful 4 cylinder VW made. Little 2 door. It only came in black. Had 200hp did 0-60 in 6.4, had a top end rev limited at 145 like all German cars. The leaf’s 0-60 is 6.2. It’s not just quicker, it’s noticeably quicker. There are quicker ICE cars but one has to spend big bucks to get them. And they eat tires too of course. I leave eco on all the time simply to tamp it down a bit. I’m still usually the fastest thing anywhere near me on the highway anyway even with eco on. I actually want to tamp it down more.

 

[Caliwish]

Hey all, first post here

As a brief introduction: I'm very mechanically inclined (one of my main cars is a Jaguar XJS V12), I'm also familiar with electrified vehicles (have owned maybe 5+ Prii and rebuild packs for them as a bit of a side business), and have done some minor work on non-Leaf EVs.

My daily driver is getting to the point where I think it's reaching EoL and I've been looking at options to replace it. The car at the top of my list was/is the Gen 1 Leaf 24kWh... The range is no problem for my normal driving, I have other cars for longer distances, home charging, etc... Plus with all the parts availability and community support it seems like a great option, and I can find them with relatively healthy batteries (9 or 10 bars) for under a few thousand dollars.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find or experience a Gen 1 Leaf yet so I have no idea if I'd like it or find it comfortable.

While contemplating this, I decided to look at the Gen 2 market since i qualify for the used EV incentive, and found that you can get a Gen 2 for a very reasonable price. You can also get a Bolt for a similar price as well.... However, this past weekend, I decided to go test drive a 2020 SV Plus locally, and I came away very impressed. It looks better than the Bolt, it's more comfortable, had more space, interior was laid out more logically and just felt better made. Only thing I didn't like was the Torque limit below ~35mph. And, although most would consider this a downside, the air cooled battery and old tech just made everything seem so simple... Like I feel that if the battery developed an isolation issue or something, I have confidence that I could pull it out and service it in my driveway if need be, not to mention the lack of... anything going on in the engine bay.

Here's where my Gen 2 question is: How's the degradation curve on the 62kWh packs looking? I found an SL Plus with the Cold Weather Pkg (I think), all the options I'd want, and a super affordable price for sale ~6 hours north of me.... buuuut it's high mileage, and with it being so far away, I can't exactly hook up Leaf Spy to it to see how many DC charges it's had, SoH, etc. I emailed the dealer asking for a picture of the battery capacity in the gauge cluster, but from what I understand, the Gen 2 won't drop a bar on that gauge until something ridiculous like 82.5% capacity correct? Also, being a Cold Weather Pkg car presumably (2019 SL+ w/ heated seats), it has a heat pump correct? What's been the reliability on the heat pump? How's the efficiency/range with vs without it?

A cheap Gen 1 would do all my driving needs perfectly fine.... But the more modern-ness of the Gen 2, with the vastly better range, newer battery, etc... I have considered just shelling out the money for it, but it would have to do more than the 30mi/day of a Gen 1 to make the added cost worth it to me.

Hey all, first post here

As a brief introduction: I'm very mechanically inclined (one of my main cars is a Jaguar XJS V12), I'm also familiar with electrified vehicles (have owned maybe 5+ Prii and rebuild packs for them as a bit of a side business), and have done some minor work on non-Leaf EVs.

My daily driver is getting to the point where I think it's reaching EoL and I've been looking at options to replace it. The car at the top of my list was/is the Gen 1 Leaf 24kWh... The range is no problem for my normal driving, I have other cars for longer distances, home charging, etc... Plus with all the parts availability and community support it seems like a great option, and I can find them with relatively healthy batteries (9 or 10 bars) for under a few thousand dollars.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find or experience a Gen 1 Leaf yet so I have no idea if I'd like it or find it comfortable.

While contemplating this, I decided to look at the Gen 2 market since i qualify for the used EV incentive, and found that you can get a Gen 2 for a very reasonable price. You can also get a Bolt for a similar price as well.... However, this past weekend, I decided to go test drive a 2020 SV Plus locally, and I came away very impressed. It looks better than the Bolt, it's more comfortable, had more space, interior was laid out more logically and just felt better made. Only thing I didn't like was the Torque limit below ~35mph. And, although most would consider this a downside, the air cooled battery and old tech just made everything seem so simple... Like I feel that if the battery developed an isolation issue or something, I have confidence that I could pull it out and service it in my driveway if need be, not to mention the lack of... anything going on in the engine bay.

Here's where my Gen 2 question is: How's the degradation curve on the 62kWh packs looking? I found an SL Plus with the Cold Weather Pkg (I think), all the options I'd want, and a super affordable price for sale ~6 hours north of me.... buuuut it's high mileage, and with it being so far away, I can't exactly hook up Leaf Spy to it to see how many DC charges it's had, SoH, etc. I emailed the dealer asking for a picture of the battery capacity in the gauge cluster, but from what I understand, the Gen 2 won't drop a bar on that gauge until something ridiculous like 82.5% capacity correct? Also, being a Cold Weather Pkg car presumably (2019 SL+ w/ heated seats), it has a heat pump correct? What's been the reliability on the heat pump? How's the efficiency/range with vs without it?

A cheap Gen 1 would do all my driving needs perfectly fine.... But the more modern-ness of the Gen 2, with the vastly better range, newer battery, etc... I have considered just shelling out the money for it, but it would have to do more than the 30mi/day of a Gen 1 to make the added cost worth it to me.

Have you looked into a 40kw 2nd gen leaf? In my market in the upper mid west I saved 3 to 4 k over the the 62kw. I got a 2019 SV with cold weather package ( which includes the heat pump) and technology package. 80.5 k mileage with all bars (1st bar loss means 85% SOH). Drives great!

 

[Caliwish]

Hey all, first post here

As a brief introduction: I'm very mechanically inclined (one of my main cars is a Jaguar XJS V12), I'm also familiar with electrified vehicles (have owned maybe 5+ Prii and rebuild packs for them as a bit of a side business), and have done some minor work on non-Leaf EVs.

My daily driver is getting to the point where I think it's reaching EoL and I've been looking at options to replace it. The car at the top of my list was/is the Gen 1 Leaf 24kWh... The range is no problem for my normal driving, I have other cars for longer distances, home charging, etc... Plus with all the parts availability and community support it seems like a great option, and I can find them with relatively healthy batteries (9 or 10 bars) for under a few thousand dollars.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find or experience a Gen 1 Leaf yet so I have no idea if I'd like it or find it comfortable.

While contemplating this, I decided to look at the Gen 2 market since i qualify for the used EV incentive, and found that you can get a Gen 2 for a very reasonable price. You can also get a Bolt for a similar price as well.... However, this past weekend, I decided to go test drive a 2020 SV Plus locally, and I came away very impressed. It looks better than the Bolt, it's more comfortable, had more space, interior was laid out more logically and just felt better made. Only thing I didn't like was the Torque limit below ~35mph. And, although most would consider this a downside, the air cooled battery and old tech just made everything seem so simple... Like I feel that if the battery developed an isolation issue or something, I have confidence that I could pull it out and service it in my driveway if need be, not to mention the lack of... anything going on in the engine bay.

Here's where my Gen 2 question is: How's the degradation curve on the 62kWh packs looking? I found an SL Plus with the Cold Weather Pkg (I think), all the options I'd want, and a super affordable price for sale ~6 hours north of me.... buuuut it's high mileage, and with it being so far away, I can't exactly hook up Leaf Spy to it to see how many DC charges it's had, SoH, etc. I emailed the dealer asking for a picture of the battery capacity in the gauge cluster, but from what I understand, the Gen 2 won't drop a bar on that gauge until something ridiculous like 82.5% capacity correct? Also, being a Cold Weather Pkg car presumably (2019 SL+ w/ heated seats), it has a heat pump correct? What's been the reliability on the heat pump? How's the efficiency/range with vs without it?

A cheap Gen 1 would do all my driving needs perfectly fine.... But the more modern-ness of the Gen 2, with the vastly better range, newer battery, etc... I have considered just shelling out the money for it, but it would have to do more than the 30mi/day of a Gen 1 to make the added cost worth it to me.

Hey all, first post here

As a brief introduction: I'm very mechanically inclined (one of my main cars is a Jaguar XJS V12), I'm also familiar with electrified vehicles (have owned maybe 5+ Prii and rebuild packs for them as a bit of a side business), and have done some minor work on non-Leaf EVs.

My daily driver is getting to the point where I think it's reaching EoL and I've been looking at options to replace it. The car at the top of my list was/is the Gen 1 Leaf 24kWh... The range is no problem for my normal driving, I have other cars for longer distances, home charging, etc... Plus with all the parts availability and community support it seems like a great option, and I can find them with relatively healthy batteries (9 or 10 bars) for under a few thousand dollars.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find or experience a Gen 1 Leaf yet so I have no idea if I'd like it or find it comfortable.

While contemplating this, I decided to look at the Gen 2 market since i qualify for the used EV incentive, and found that you can get a Gen 2 for a very reasonable price. You can also get a Bolt for a similar price as well.... However, this past weekend, I decided to go test drive a 2020 SV Plus locally, and I came away very impressed. It looks better than the Bolt, it's more comfortable, had more space, interior was laid out more logically and just felt better made. Only thing I didn't like was the Torque limit below ~35mph. And, although most would consider this a downside, the air cooled battery and old tech just made everything seem so simple... Like I feel that if the battery developed an isolation issue or something, I have confidence that I could pull it out and service it in my driveway if need be, not to mention the lack of... anything going on in the engine bay.

Here's where my Gen 2 question is: How's the degradation curve on the 62kWh packs looking? I found an SL Plus with the Cold Weather Pkg (I think), all the options I'd want, and a super affordable price for sale ~6 hours north of me.... buuuut it's high mileage, and with it being so far away, I can't exactly hook up Leaf Spy to it to see how many DC charges it's had, SoH, etc. I emailed the dealer asking for a picture of the battery capacity in the gauge cluster, but from what I understand, the Gen 2 won't drop a bar on that gauge until something ridiculous like 82.5% capacity correct? Also, being a Cold Weather Pkg car presumably (2019 SL+ w/ heated seats), it has a heat pump correct? What's been the reliability on the heat pump? How's the efficiency/range with vs without it?

A cheap Gen 1 would do all my driving needs perfectly fine.... But the more modern-ness of the Gen 2, with the vastly better range, newer battery, etc... I have considered just shelling out the money for it, but it would have to do more than the 30mi/day of a Gen 1 to make the added cost worth it to me.

Have you looked into a 40kw 2nd gen leaf? In my market in the upper mid west I saved 3 to 4 k over the 62kw. I have a 2019 SV with cold weather package( which includes the heat pump) and technology package. It has 80.5 k miles and it drives great.

 

[knightmb]

Here's where my Gen 2 question is: How's the degradation curve on the 62kWh packs looking? I found an SL Plus with the Cold Weather Pkg (I think), all the options I'd want, and a super affordable price for sale ~6 hours north of me.... buuuut it's high mileage, and with it being so far away, I can't exactly hook up Leaf Spy to it to see how many DC charges it's had, SoH, etc.

From personal experience, my 2020 SL Plus bought new, I've put nearly +100K miles on it with about 11% battery degradation (technically). I QC the hell out of the battery, but then I also try not to do anything that would hurt the battery in the long run. The issue I see with "used" Leaf is that if the previous owner was in an accident, they can cover it up by just paying out of pocket to fix it. The damage might be internal where no one can see it and thus it's possible to get a battery that has issues later on down the road, unknown to the new owner. You will need LeafSpy and a Bluetooth ODBII connector to be sure of some of these issues before you buy, if you want to really be certain. That's what I do for friends or family buying a used Leaf, they send me in to check it first.

The only advantage to spending more on the Gen 2 is that you will get a better battery technology, hands down. But... how the previous owner treated the battery has a large effect on it too. Even if a Gen 1 can meet your mileage needs now, it will continue to decline over time, such is the fate of us early adopters. The Gen 2, provided it was treated fair by the previous owner, it going to be useful for a lot longer. Mainly in the area of charging and spur-of-the-moment trips you want to take.

If the Leaf will just be a "stepping" stone to another EV purchase, then then the Gen 1 might be fine for your temporary needs, but if you plan on keeping the Leaf until the wheels fall off (like I will and many others here are doing), going big is the best way.

 

[BuckleSpring]

Have you looked into a 40kw 2nd gen leaf?

I've considered it... But if I'm spending "real" money, I'd rather just pay up for the 62kWh and have a more usable all-around vehicle.

You will need LeafSpy and a Bluetooth ODBII connector to be sure of some of these issues before you buy, if you want to really be certain. That's what I do for friends or family buying a used Leaf, they send me in to check it first.

Yeah I'm going to try and get in touch with a relative.... Like I said, the car that's at the top of my Gen 2 watchlist is ~6 hours away from me in the Northern Virginia area.

If the Leaf will just be a "stepping" stone to another EV purchase, then then the Gen 1 might be fine for your temporary needs, but if you plan on keeping the Leaf until the wheels fall off (like I will and many others here are doing), going big is the best way.

Yep that's what I have to decide. If I go the cheap Gen 1 route, I'll probably do what I do with most of my fleet of other cars.... Enjoy it for a couple of years until I've had my fill, then pass it on. If I go the Gen 2 route, I'd be paying real money, so I'd be in it for the long haul

 

[Bombastinator2]

Have you looked into a 40kw 2nd gen leaf? In my market in the upper mid west I saved 3 to 4 k over the the 62kw. I got a 2019 SV with cold weather package ( which includes the heat pump) and technology package. 80.5 k mileage with all bars (1st bar loss means 85% SOH). Drives great!

Owning a 2019 al (which is gen2 40w) I do find the range occasionally limiting. There are times when I have to go across town several times and sometimes I don’t have the range. With an sl+ it just wouldn’t be a problem. Commuting of course no issues. It’s the ferrying people or things that I can’t always do

 

[OntarioSV2018]

Someone on Reddit is tracking the degradation on 40 kWh LEAF packs, I think they are similar or worse degradation to the 62 kWh packs.

 

[Miliki]

No entiendo muy bien la preocupación en la degradación de los paquetes de 62kwh, veo más importante la caída de voltaje después de cierto porcentaje, no sé qué se puede decir sobre esta captura pero esta batería no llega a los 175km.

 

[Miliki]

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I haven't seen any long term comparisons. Everything so far is anecdotal.

 

[BuckleSpring]

Unfortunately I have not been able to find or experience a Gen 1 Leaf yet so I have no idea if I'd like it or find it comfortable.

As an update to this part: I finally got a chance to drive a Gen 1 this past weekend (a 2013). I actually kind of loved it. Good power, comfortable, felt well-made, more spacious than I was expecting too. Assuming i can find one in the price range I want to pay with a healthy battery, I think it'll be my next car

 

[knightmb]

As an update to this part: I finally got a chance to drive a Gen 1 this past weekend (a 2013). I actually kind of loved it. Good power, comfortable, felt well-made, more spacious than I was expecting too. Assuming i can find one in the price range I want to pay with a healthy battery, I think it'll be my next car

Look for 2015 models then, the best of the 24 kWh battery packs according to legend; and my friends and family who still drive one to this day.

 

[BuckleSpring]

Look for 2015 models then, the best of the 24 kWh battery packs according to legend; and my friends and family who still drive one to this day.

Haha unfortunately not gonna happen... At least in my region, the late 24kWh Gen 1's go for such a premium, I may as well pay an extra grand or two and get a Gen 2.

 

[MikeinPA]

I have two 2013s--very well made vehicle for the most part. Love driving them. My only serious issue has been the cells in the blue one.
T
Here is something I have very slowly come to realize something about the cell failure in this car, and possibly many many other Leafs. There is a clear yellow sealant around the edges of the pouch. This failed in the cell I replaced last year, and outgassing had occurred while the cell was still in the rear stack. At the time I replaced that cell (and module of course), I also change two other modules that were not quite tracking with the rest. Now, I recently saw that one of these other two modules has a cell that is slowly outgassing as well. The original bad cell has swollen to about 3x normal size--so some reaction is ongoing. It is located safely outside of course. I need to update the above post with pictures of the swollen cell.

So if this seal goes, the cell goes. It just might take years to happen. And the electrolyte has a very distinctive odor, which I smelled upon opening the blue pack. I wonder if there is some easy way to sample for this smell without opening the pack. Maybe loosen the ring around the safety fuse/disconnect?

Anyway, if looking at a 2013 or thereabouts, the cells should be in near perfect balance at all states of charge. The BMS has had 10 years to balance up the pack--if any cells are not behaving I personally would immediately suspect sealant failure on a cell. Of course the cells are paralleled--so to a certain extent, a failing cell will be propped up by its partner.

 

[Bombastinator2]

Haha unfortunately not gonna happen... At least in my region, the late 24kWh Gen 1's go for such a premium, I may as well pay an extra grand or two and get a Gen 2.

Reminds me of CPUs. Intel KF series chips go for more even though the Ks are arguably better chips. This was happening even before KFs got a small bump to their turbo, and all a KF was was a k that was too messed up for its APU to pass trials. Might still be the case. They just allow the KFs to rev a bit higher when not overclocked now. AFAIK they OC about the same. I haven’t really looked though.

 

[MikeinPA]

Way off topic, but I got a new in the box i5-13600KF sitting on my desk just waiting for my next budget build.