Intermitted problem with starting 2022 SL Plus. Any suggestions ?

[HKSP1413]

My leaf started to have problems with starting few weeks ago, sometimes it would start sometimes it wouldn’t.
Took it to the dealer they could not repro, but then they were able to diagnose a low 12V battery and replaced it under warranty.
Two weeks passed with no issue and I use the car regularly every day, but then the issue resurfaced. Didn’t use the car for 4 days, then the car ran for 8 days and no issue.
Today had the same problem again, after trying 4 times to start I waited until the dashboard turned completely black and then it started. Leafspy has a bunch of comm errors but they can be cleared.

What the heck is going on? Any suggestions to solve or troubleshoot are really appreciated. just can put myself to take it to the dealer if they cannot repro the problem

 

[HKSP1413]

Any help appreciated. The problem is still presenting about every 10 days. The dealer does not know where to start the troubleshooting from.

If it is a 12v battery level, should I try a oohmmm with Bluetooth to understand what the level is when the problem manifest?

 

[cornbinder89]

I wonder if you have a "dark draw" on the 12 volt? A draw that is on all the time even when "shut off" that draws the battery down.
There is a tool to measure this and find it but it isn't cheap and takes a little knowledge of using meters.
It takes time and perseverance. Something dealer tech lack esp when being paid "flat rate". Either take it back to the dealer and say they "didn't fix the problem" or tackle it yourself.
It is important to establish a failed repair under warrantee as a failed repair, that stops the "clock" on the warrantee on that problem. You took it to them when it was covered and they failed to solve the problem.
If it is in fact a "dark draw" on the 12 volt, this tool or one made like it will tell how much the draw is:
https://mprtools.com/products/power...MI_M6ioMXoiQMVSTbUAR3bwALGEAQYBSABEgKpr_D_BwE

Once you know how much current is being drawn on the battery with the car at rest, the hard part comes you have to check each circuit to find out which is drawing the excessive amount.

According to the service manual, the Leaf should see no more the 50ma when at rest and everything is shut down.

 

[lorenfb]

I wonder if you have a "dark draw" on the 12 volt? A draw that is on all the time even when "shut off" that draws the battery down.
There is a tool to measure this and find it but it isn't cheap and takes a little knowledge of using meters.
It takes time and perseverance. Something dealer tech lack esp when being paid "flat rate". Either take it back to the dealer and say they "didn't fix the problem" or tackle it yourself.
It is important to establish a failed repair under warrantee as a failed repair, that stops the "clock" on the warrantee on that problem. You took it to them when it was covered and they failed to solve the problem.
If it is in fact a "dark draw" on the 12 volt, this tool or one made like it will tell how much the draw is:
https://mprtools.com/products/power-probe-ppdrawcbint-vehicle-draw-monitor-memory-saver?&utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=US - Multifeeds&utm_content=Power Probe PPDRAWCBINT Vehicle Draw Monitor & Memory Saver&currency=USD&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_M6ioMXoiQMVSTbUAR3bwALGEAQYBSABEgKpr_D_BwE

Once you know how much current is being drawn on the battery with the car at rest, the hard part comes you have to check each circuit to find out which is drawing the excessive amount.

According to the service manual, the Leaf should see no more the 50ma when at rest and everything is shut down.

Better choice; https://www.amazon.com/s?k=clamp-on...amp-on+amm,aps,217&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_12

 

[nlspace]

Leafspy has a bunch of comm errors but they can be cleared.

The DTCs will clear on their own once you solve the problem.

The purpose of the codes is to guide and point in the direction needed to find the root cause and repair/replace the culprit.

Just clearing codes doesn't solve the problem, it just hides it.

If the car is not driven everyday, then my first suspect is that the 12V battery is not fully charged all the time and causing low supply voltage in the ECUs connected to the CAN Buss. There are DTCs for low supply voltage, but you would need to post your screenshot of codes to get any help.

 

[lorenfb]

The DTCs will clear on their own once you solve the problem.

The purpose of the codes is to guide and point in the direction needed to find the root cause and repair/replace the culprit.

Just clearing codes doesn't solve the problem, it just hides it.

If the car is not driven everyday, then my first suspect is that the 12V battery is not fully charged all the time and causing low supply voltage in the ECUs connected to the CAN Buss. There are DTCs for low supply voltage, but you would need to post your screenshot of codes to get any help.

Not always!

 

[cornbinder89]

Better choice; https://www.amazon.com/s?k=clamp-on+ammeter&crid=LYZ2E4V6N34F&sprefix=Clamp-on+amm,aps,217&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_12

Read the specs! most of those that you linked to are AC ammeters and the only one I saw that claimed the resolution needed was AC only.
Inductive meter that can measure DC ma at the resolution needed are not easy to find.
You can build something like the Power Probe easily enough, getting the resolution on DC is the key. How you do it is up to you.

 

[Steve52]

What the heck is going on? Any suggestions to solve or troubleshoot are really appreciated. just can put myself to take it to the dealer if they cannot repro the problem

The Leaf has low level loads on the 12 V battery to allow remote reporting of various functions. In addition, it has a questionable charge algorithm on the 12 V battery. These two combine to produce a wide variety of "phantom" symptoms that you need to rule out before you can go onto the next level of troubleshooting.
You haven't said whether you have a volt meter and are able to use it to measure the voltage on the 12 V battery. Another tool to keep a Leaf in better working order is to have a 12 V battery tender that can bring the battery to full charge overnight. I have a 6 amp charger/tender that I use regularly if my Leaf sits for any length of time. Both of these devices are available on Amazon. Do a full charge and then report back on your results.

 

[nlspace]

Even a small 1 Amp charger/tender is sufficient to fully charge and keep the battery fully charged, e.g. Yuasa 1A smart charger is an excellent device, and i have tested and dismantled dozens to compare and find the flaws/strengths.

 

[hradek]

My leaf started to have problems with starting few weeks ago, sometimes it would start sometimes it wouldn’t.
Took it to the dealer they could not repro, but then they were able to diagnose a low 12V battery and replaced it under warranty.
Two weeks passed with no issue and I use the car regularly every day, but then the issue resurfaced. Didn’t use the car for 4 days, then the car ran for 8 days and no issue.
Today had the same problem again, after trying 4 times to start I waited until the dashboard turned completely black and then it started. Leafspy has a bunch of comm errors but they can be cleared.

What the heck is going on? Any suggestions to solve or troubleshoot are really appreciated. just can put myself to take it to the dealer if they cannot repro the problem

Do you have Nissan Connect? If you do you may want to stop the service and see how that affects the problem?

 

[Zero Emissions]

I wonder if you have a "dark draw" on the 12 volt? A draw that is on all the time even when "shut off" that draws the battery down.
There is a tool to measure this and find it but it isn't cheap and takes a little knowledge of using meters.
It takes time and perseverance. Something dealer tech lack esp when being paid "flat rate". Either take it back to the dealer and say they "didn't fix the problem" or tackle it yourself.
It is important to establish a failed repair under warrantee as a failed repair, that stops the "clock" on the warrantee on that problem. You took it to them when it was covered and they failed to solve the problem.
If it is in fact a "dark draw" on the 12 volt, this tool or one made like it will tell how much the draw is:
https://mprtools.com/products/power-probe-ppdrawcbint-vehicle-draw-monitor-memory-saver?&utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=US - Multifeeds&utm_content=Power Probe PPDRAWCBINT Vehicle Draw Monitor & Memory Saver&currency=USD&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_M6ioMXoiQMVSTbUAR3bwALGEAQYBSABEgKpr_D_BwE

Once you know how much current is being drawn on the battery with the car at rest, the hard part comes you have to check each circuit to find out which is drawing the excessive amount.

According to the service manual, the Leaf should see no more the 50ma when at rest and everything is shut down.

OK time to roll up your sleeves. Then...Using even a cheap meter set on 12 volt under 20 amp then disconnect the negative battery lead and position it away from the battery, place your Black test meter probe on the disconnected negative battery post and the Red meter test probe on the disconnected battery lead then read the meter if in fact there is a draw then you will see it on the meter double check make sure everything is individually turned off and the doors and rear hatch etc. Are closed insuring entry/dome lights are off as well. If you see no life on the meter then switch your meter to amps/milliamps and retest. Besure to Pull the fuses out of the fuse panel one at a time wait 5 seconds then check meter until you find the draw(s) is gone, then read the manual to find out which circuit that is... and then the most important part stop! Grab an ice cold beer and cogitate for the next 10 minutes while you figure out which buddy is best to call and come over and enjoy a cold beer with and maybe help you trace the defective circuit or... I suppose you could have your wife come out and read the meter as you unplug connectors one at a time on that circuit until you reach Nirvana in which case you will need to send the wife to the fridge to get you both an ice cold beer for the celebration!. FYI if you have no luck with removing the fuses one at a time then you should also try removing relays as well one at a time with a 5 second delay incase the circuit has some type of LV capacitor or voltage memory. If you still can't figure it out then once again grab another ice cold beer it will cool you down and comfort you knowing you at least gave it a honest try before opening your wallet to a repair shop.

 

[cornbinder89]

Problem with many new cars is that will not work. When you disconnect the battery then re-power through the meter, a bunch of initializing and communication takes place with all the modules on the Can Bus. All will show a false load, and pulling and replacing fuses will start the process all over again.
You need to have the meter "shunted in" before disconnecting, so power never gets interrupted, and track the load by using the fuse itself as a current shunt.
You must keep the power flowing to everything at all times or you will get false readings and will end up chasing your tail.
That is why in the service manual they tell you to leave the car un touched, no opening of doors or any draw for a set period (IIRC 10min) to allow all modules to go into "sleep mode" before testing.
That is the purpose of the Power Probe draw detector, it shunts in the meter and doesn't break power when doing so.
It is not the only way to do it but is easy for the un skilled.
Concentrate on what it is doing not on the product alone, it is easy to make, but the important feature is to see total "dark load" without breaking power feed, then be able to track dark loads via the fuses with a ma meter, again without breaking power.
Once you are reasonably sure you have the circuit Identified that has the problem, then and only then you can disconnect items on that circuit to find which is staying active.
Much different from the old day, before Can Bus and modules "talking to each other", where a load was likely to be a dome lamp, glovebox lamp or truck lamp not shutting off, and you could pull fuses to find the draw, and re insert the fuse without creating a draw.

 

[TronJockey]

My leaf started to have problems with starting few weeks ago, sometimes it would start sometimes it wouldn’t.
Took it to the dealer they could not repro, but then they were able to diagnose a low 12V battery and replaced it under warranty.
Two weeks passed with no issue and I use the car regularly every day, but then the issue resurfaced. Didn’t use the car for 4 days, then the car ran for 8 days and no issue.
Today had the same problem again, after trying 4 times to start I waited until the dashboard turned completely black and then it started. Leafspy has a bunch of comm errors but they can be cleared.

What the heck is going on? Any suggestions to solve or troubleshoot are really appreciated. just can put myself to take it to the dealer if they cannot repro the problem

If you've eliminated the possibility of any "abnormal" parasitic drains (dark draws) then you'll want to make sure your 12V battery is healthy (and being properly maintained by the Leaf). If you have a voltmeter open the hood and connect the leads to the battery terminals. Hopefully the leads are long enough to allow the voltmeter to be positioned in front of the windshield (so you can see it from the driver's seat). Before starting the car the voltmeter should (ideally) be reading a "resting" voltage of nominally 12.6Vdc (12.4Vdc-13.0Vdc) for a healthy and fully charged Lead Acid battery. This could vary slightly depending upon whether it's a flooded, AGM or SLA type (some Optima batteries may be closer to 13.0-13.2Vdc). After pushing the start button the reading may drop slightly for a few seconds then jump up to about 14.3Vdc. It should hold at 14.3Vdc for about 60 seconds after the car is fully powered up at which point it should drop to a maintenace charge of roughly 13.0Vdc. It will stay at 13.0Vdc while driving except when using the windshield wipers. A little-known fact about the Leaf that many owners don't realize is that when the wipers are engaged the 12V Lead Acid battery should receive a 14.3Vdc charge.
There may be another issue for owners that have switched to certain types of Optima batteries. Optima batteries recommend a maintenance charge voltage of 13.2Vdc to 13.8Vdc. Since the Leaf only provides a maintenance voltage of 13.0Vdc this could eventually cause an issue unless the owner lives where it rains often. Good luck.
Forgive me if I've confused "Maintenace" charge with "Float" charge. Perhaps a Lead Acid expert can chime in here with a little guidance . I see where the terms are often used interchangeably but I believe that's incorrect.

 

[Zero Emissions]

H

Problem with many new cars is that will not work. When you disconnect the battery then re-power through the meter, a bunch of initializing and communication takes place with all the modules on the Can Bus. All will show a false load, and pulling and replacing fuses will start the process all over again.
You need to have the meter "shunted in" before disconnecting, so power never gets interrupted, and track the load by using the fuse itself as a current shunt.
You must keep the power flowing to everything at all times or you will get false readings and will end up chasing your tail.
That is why in the service manual they tell you to leave the car un touched, no opening of doors or any draw for a set period (IIRC 10min) to allow all modules to go into "sleep mode" before testing.
That is the purpose of the Power Probe draw detector, it shunts in the meter and doesn't break power when doing so.
It is not the only way to do it but is easy for the un skilled.
Concentrate on what it is doing not on the product alone, it is easy to make, but the important feature is to see total "dark load" without breaking power feed, then be able to track dark loads via the fuses with a ma meter, again without breaking power.
Once you are reasonably sure you have the circuit Identified that has the problem, then and only then you can disconnect items on that circuit to find which is staying active.
Much different from the old day, before Can Bus and modules "talking to each other", where a load was likely to be a dome lamp, glovebox lamp or truck lamp not shutting off, and you could pull fuses to find the draw, and re insert the fuse without creating a draw.

Hum Im old school for sure and worst case even if my method is outdated and might not work well the good news is you get to enjoy an Ice cold beer right?...lol I think my way works for a lot of issues but you are correct this new fangled stuff is way over engineered which is half the reason it has issues to begin with and I've never understood why we even have to plug a tester into an OBDll port when you should be able to just press a simple button on the dash and it shows up on the radio screen the same info that a OBDii tester shows. Then we could push the button that speaks "that was easy"

 

[HKSP1413]

Thank you all for the suggestions. The car has been driving perfectly for more than two weeks, but today we're back to it not starting. Throwing errors, see photos.

Tried 4 times letting the dashboard to go completely dark between try and then it started.

I installed a battery monitor and will monitor it regularly. I don't have a tester yet, but I'll get one.

Based on my reading online, I had the second key fob in the garage, that could have been the issue. Additionally, the tire pressure was below 36 PSI, so I moved the fob away from the car and inflated the warm tires to 40 PSI.

Here is the LeafSpy when the car doesn't start. Everything is ok when car starts. Just for your entertainment, I'm not sure it is pointing to a single issue.

 

[nlspace]

All the "U-xxxx" codes are CAN buss related errors. Even just one will prevent operation and you have many. Typically caused by low power supply voltage (12V battery)

 

[Steve52]

Thank you all for the suggestions. The car has been driving perfectly for more than two weeks, but today we're back to it not starting. Throwing errors, see photos.

Suggestions were made 2 weeks ago to get a battery tender and a voltmeter to troubleshoot the most obvious problem with these vehicles; discharged/low voltage on the 12V battery. It seems you've done neither. Please post when you've fully charged the battery and reset all the codes. Otherwise, you can't go to the next steps of troubleshooting until you rule out the 12V battery as being the problem.

 

[HKSP1413]

Suggestions were made 2 weeks ago to get a battery tender and a voltmeter to troubleshoot the most obvious problem with these vehicles; discharged/low voltage on the 12V battery. It seems you've done neither. Please post when you've fully charged the battery and reset all the codes. Otherwise, you can't go to the next steps of troubleshooting until you rule out the 12V battery as being the problem.

@Steve52 I appreciate all the messages on this forum. However, I find the tone of your message quite DISRESPECTFUL , as you are NOT AWARE of my circumstances. I underwent surgery and was unable to be online or drive. I still can't but my wife drives the Leaf regularly.

Back to the actual topic and facts: attached is the 12V status. It looks good, but very close to 12V when the car doesn't start. When the car starts DTCs are clean and remain clean, until the next episode of not starting.

 

[cornbinder89]

I see nothing to indicate that the 12 volt power is the reason for it not to start.
Unfortunately, there are some here who can't get past the 12 volt supply is not the root of all faults.
The lack of communication errors and the fact the battery never drops below 12 volt, manual says
11 volts minimum.
So, what can cause a no start?
Is it going to Acc? in other words, does the dash lights come on, radio works etc but no <-> green car? That would indicate that the fob is registering with the car, but the brake is not indicating to the car it is being pressed.
If not and the dash isn't lighting, then it would seam that the fob is not being "seen" by the car.
The key is going to being able to isolate what does and does not work and when.
If I had all the 12 volt batteries that were replaced but didn't solve the problem (but according to some needed to be changed anyway) I would never need another battery as long as I live.
The key is going noting what happens and what doesn't happen and try to find the common thread that ties it all together.
The biggest draw on the battery is going to be the pre-charge of the inverter capacitors, then followed by the contactor coils. Both are far less than an ICE car uses to crank, and the draw time is less than cranking an engine. Once the HV system is energized, the 12 volt charge circuit has full output "at its finger tips" unlike a ICE car it is not dependent on engine speed.

 

[Steve52]

@Steve52 I appreciate all the messages on this forum. However, I find the tone of your message quite DISRESPECTFUL , as you are NOT AWARE of my circumstances. I underwent surgery and was unable to be online or drive. I still can't but my wife drives the Leaf regularly.

I apologize for coming across as disrespectful, it wasn't my intent. I intended to be blunt as you are correct in that I know nothing of your circumstances nor your level of knowledge about troubleshooting your Leaf. When you posted more details without eliminating the 12V battery as the root cause, I intended to simply reiterate past suggestions.
Hope you're feeling better.
Steve