When Will My Leaf Batteries "die"

[ToddLeaf]

Hi all. I've done a ton of research while deciding to purchase my first used Leaf. It will be a second car with a specific task: to get back and forth from work 5 miles each way. I have my eye on a couple of 2011, 2012, and 2013 models with around 25-35% battery life left. I plugged in Leaf Pro with the LELink OBD2 adapter and the readings are accurate, histogram is tragic but ok, recharges are in the three thousands on one, etc.

Quex is this: how many years will I get before Leafs of this vintage will just stop recharging? 2,3,5 10?

Thanks.

 

[NeguE]

No one knows.
*Edit"
25-35% life left ? Probably 1 year.
If all cells is broken can't to something but if only 2-10 ar damage you can change them.

 

[Wrench7747]

I have to agree with NeguE's first answer: nobody knows.

However, I would be slightly more optimistic, given strict constraints: if you only drive 10 miles per day, only charge at home on Level 1, and always keep the SoC between 20% to 80% (don't ever charge it to 100% full), it could last longer than 1 year.

But you would also have to be OK with accepting that it still might die in a year.

Consider that a 12 year old Leaf at 40% SoH has lost 60% in that time, or roughly 5% per year. At that point it probably has a 30 to 40 mile range, and with a 5% annual loss, in 4 years that may be cut in half. If you are gentler on charging it than previous owner, then maybe you can slow that degradation, or maybe not.

In my opinion, the overwhelming criteria in choosing which one to buy is pack SoH reported by LeafSpy. That outweighs everything else, including mileage.

 

[Dooglas]

I would avoid cars built in '11, '12, and thru April of '13. Nissan switched to different battery chemistry at that point and the resistance of the battery to degradation is significantly improved. As far as how long an older battery will last? Really not predictable.

 

[rsbrax]

Hopefully the response below will help with your decision. I think my Leaf could continue charging for 10 more years but the SOH would be less than 20%

I have a 2012 Leaf SL (original owner) which still charges fine. The SOH is 46% and the range is about 35 miles. I also monitor the battery cells min/max/ delta. It is usually 20-30 mv which indicates there are no bad cells to worry about. If the delta goes high (>60mv ?) it could mean a weak cell.
I think charging when outside temps are moderate is important to extend the HV battery life. I skip charging if the LeafSpy Battery Sensors are orange or maybe even greenish yellow.

The biggest battery degradation occurred summer 2017 with a 23 mile daily commute. I charged to 100% to make that trip. I would say the degradation rate is less than 5% a year since ending that commute.

Also only 8 QC's since 2012 and the mileage is around 35,000.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Why would you buy a car to go 5 miles.
1) This is a 2nd car? You need to factor in inital tax, registration, yearly registration, insurance X2 for 2 cars. Add tires for two cars. I will say LEAF maintenance is low, no oil changes, filters. However that does not cost much if you can turn a wrench

MY STATE CHARGES ME EXTRA $100 EV PENALTY TAX ANNUALLY. Why not drive the car you have? With that said my LEAF (2015 SV I bought used 3 yo) is my second car for commutes and grocery getting. So I'm hypocritical. After almost 7 years I am questioning my decision. Annually I put on 3K miles on LEAF, 3K on VW TDI Sportwagen (diesel), 2K on BMW motorcycle. So I keep miles down on VW that I use for road trips and longer trips. I like the LEAF. I hate it's range is limiting me now and noticeable.

Registration and insurance is going up on all of my vehicles which makes me question ownership of LEAF. If I could only have one car it would not be an EV.

2) if you must get a LEAF get a later model with some range, preferably a 40KW battery model. My 2015 LEAF SV is 75% (75 mi range). I plan on driving it another 5-9 yrs or before it gets to 40%, which ever hapoens first. it will be sold, unless a replacement battery appears and it's economically viable. Not holding breath. Prices of EV's are going down. Hybrids are doing OK, but ICE still out sells both. If GOV stops giving rebates to buyers or incentives to manufactures the bottom will fall out of sakes.

3) Or consider an ICE car (Civic, Fit, Spark, Corolla) or other EV Bolt, Kia. The Prius Hybrid is solid. The latter a real car that could be your one and only car, true transportation if your #1 car pukes you have a backup. Prius is reliable ND gets great mileage but boring.
.
4) If all cells are balanced, no individual cell dead good. But they are all bad by definition at 25% to 35%. As others say you can't predicte if a cell will die suddenly. If that happens it will brick that car. However if 10 mikes is all you need I would say 30% might "work" but not so much in a few years.

if you have money and room and want EV, consider buying one that you will not fear dying. Pay more money. But a 5 mi commute to by a car you don't need is not logical. However you got to have up to you. The LEAF better be super cheap. Don't pay too much.

 

[William Mattocks]

Why would you buy a car to go 5 miles.
1) This is a 2nd car? You need to factor in inital tax, registration, yearly registration, insurance X2 for 2 cars. Add tires for two cars. I will say LEAF maintenance is low, no oil changes, filters. However that does not cost much if you can turn a wrench

MY STATE CHARGES ME EXTRA $100 EV PENALTY TAX ANNUALLY. Why not drive the car you have? With that said my LEAF (2015 SV I bought used 3 yo) is my second car for commutes and grocery getting. So I'm hypocritical. After almost 7 years I am questioning my decision. Annually I put on 3K miles on LEAF, 3K on VW TDI Sportwagen (diesel), 2K on BMW motorcycle. So I keep miles down on VW that I use for road trips and longer trips. I like the LEAF. I hate it's range is limiting me now and noticeable.

Registration and insurance is going up on all of my vehicles which makes me question ownership of LEAF. If I could only have one car it would not be an EV.

2) if you must get a LEAF get a later model with some range, preferably a 40KW battery model. My 2015 LEAF SV is 75% (75 mi range). I plan on driving it another 5-9 yrs or before it gets to 40%, which ever hapoens first. it will be sold, unless a replacement battery appears and it's economically viable. Not holding breath. Prices of EV's are going down. Hybrids are doing OK, but ICE still out sells both. If GOV stops giving rebates to buyers or incentives to manufactures the bottom will fall out of sakes.

3) Or consider an ICE car (Civic, Fit, Spark, Corolla) or other EV Bolt, Kia. The Prius Hybrid is solid. The latter a real car that could be your one and only car, true transportation if your #1 car pukes you have a backup. Prius is reliable ND gets great mileage but boring.
.
4) If all cells are balanced, no individual cell dead good. But they are all bad by definition at 25% to 35%. As others say you can't predicte if a cell will die suddenly. If that happens it will brick that car. However if 10 mikes is all you need I would say 30% might "work" but not so much in a few years.

if you have money and room and want EV, consider buying one that you will not fear dying. Pay more money. But a 5 mi commute to by a car you don't need is not logical. However you got to have up to you. The LEAF better be super cheap. Don't pay too much.

My drive to work is 10 miles each way. I am considering the purchase of a used LEAF with something in the area of 50 miles range because it would fit my use case. A used LEAF with 50 miles or so of range is quite inexpensive, and it is a very nice car in all other regards. Why not drive what I currently own? It's a 30 year old Toyota pickup with 250K miles on it. No creature comforts, even AC, so it's not the most comfortable drive; although I find it very useful in other respects, such as hauling items. So a used LEAF with limited range would be strictly used to drive back and forth to work on a daily basis. I see nothing wrong with that.

I joined this forum because I find myself fascinated by the LEAF and I'm seriously considering a purchase of a used one. I've seen some things that give me pause, but others which encourage me. We'll see what I choose. In my area, it looks like 2012/1023 LEAFs go for around $2,500 USD. I consider that inexpensive.

 

[Jarichus]

I bought a 2012 SV with 82k miles and 38% SOH for $1500 thinking I could be happy just driving around town the 25 - 30 miles it would go in the summertime. Turns out I was always watching the gauges more than the road worried if the car would get me home! The battery has had 396 quick charges and 6000 L1 & L2 charges and the car came from Florida. I ended up buying a 2016 Leaf S with 49k and a 85% SOH for three times the money because it has a range of 60 miles in real life. I now have a good 2016 battery to put in the 2012 leaf. I am hoping rewiring the 22 pin connector to the 36 pin and LeafSpy Pro will get me going without the need for a can bridge.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

My drive to work is 10 miles each way. I am considering the purchase of a used LEAF with something in the area of 50 miles range because it would fit my use case. A used LEAF with 50 miles or so of range is quite inexpensive, and it is a very nice car in all other regards. Why not drive what I currently own? It's a 30 year old Toyota pickup with 250K miles on it. No creature comforts, even AC, so it's not the most comfortable drive; although I find it very useful in other respects, such as hauling items. So a used LEAF with limited range would be strictly used to drive back and forth to work on a daily basis. I see nothing wrong with that.

I joined this forum because I find myself fascinated by the LEAF and I'm seriously considering a purchase of a used one. I've seen some things that give me pause, but others which encourage me. We'll see what I choose. In my area, it looks like 2012/1023 LEAFs go for around $2,500 USD. I consider that inexpensive.

If you can get a deal go for it. Up to you. My main point it's a second car is going to cost a lot per mile basis. If only car it's very limited to be of value.

Your other vehicle is a classic toyota truck that has hauling utility, bit no AC. Got it

Forgive me, sell the truck? Buy a new truck? Have one ride. Yes that will cost more but now you have a reliable safe comfortable vehicle to do it all? Just a thought.

What about putting AC in the truck, fixing truck up? Chick's dig trucks. Ha ha. Cost less. Toyota trucks known for long life.

I'd say get a LEAF with range more than bare min to commute. Hey 50 mi range may work for you. Again 2nd cars will cost you thousands up front and a grand a year (tax, tabs, insurance).

Charging at home? You may get away with level 1 charging (that is using standard 120v outlet). That is 120 volts x 15 amps = 1900 watts. It could take 9 hrs to charge. To install Level II (240v) could be $2000 or more. I did mine for $300. Bought a used 5kW clipper creek and installed it myself. Note S models only charge below 4 kW. The SV and SL charges at almost +7 kW. Also CHdeMO is the optional fast DC charger option. You don't need that.

*** Keep in mind to make battery last charging to 80% max is highly encouraged. So 50 mile range is 40 mile range. And you want to get home with 10 miles in tank. So 59 mi is 30 mi.***

Go for it. Just keep in mind you have fixed cost tax, tabs, insurance x2 for two rides. I recently dropped comprehensive insurance.

Keep in mind the electricity you charge with was mostly made with coal, natural gas, and some nuclear and hydro. Depending on part of country a portion also may be solar or wind, but a fraction of total power. I say this if doing tge EV thing for altruistic reasons. I do love my LEAF for what it is, not virtue signaling or any Gov incentive. I bought mine used.

Good luck. Get the best drive battery you can get. The S model is bare bones. SV has more technology and upgrades which worth while. SL adds better interior materials, I think fake leather. S model is fine, just don't pay too much. Overall they are bullet proof. Check tires and battery ( the 12volt one).

Last get or borrow LeafSpy Pro and see what the battery cells are like. its an app for android, and bought separate a bluetooth OBDII dongle. How many bars on battery capacity dash display? 12 max .meaning 100% to 85% SOH. A car with 50 mi range is going to be 8 or 7 bars I think. The first bar is roughly 15% and each subsequent bar is roughly 7.5%. 50 mi range is SOH 50% approximately. Mine is 10 bar +75%. So I might be ready to drop to 9 bar in next year. The 10 bars has held for 4 years. If I do math my LEAF lost 25%/10 yrs. 2.5% per year average. But it's not linear straight line. You can abuse battery, charge to 100% and run to limp mode over and over. 80% max charge and avoiding low charge state. As battery capacity gets limited you push range low before charging.

Any LEAF you consider buying charge it to 100% and see range. Set OD trip meter. Drive it until you have dashes for both range and percent remaining. What was driven range. The Guess-O-Meter range is not always accurate. It can be higher if driving with care very conservatively, coasting, accelerating slowly, not driving at high speed (over 50 mph), no AC, heat, lights, to boost average mikes/kW. Guess-O-Meter is estimated range. It's close but depends on how you drive.

Like gas car a heavy right foot affects range. It does have great fun acceleration off the line. Go for it. EV's are fun to play with. It's a great way to tip toe into the EV pond w/o spending $60,000.

 

[William Mattocks]

If you can get a deal go for it. Up to you. My main point it's a second car is going to cost a lot per mile basis. If only car it's very limited to be of value.

Your other vehicle is a classic toyota truck that has hauling utility, bit no AC. Got it

Forgive me, sell the truck? Buy a new truck? Have one ride. Yes that will cost more but now you have a reliable safe comfortable vehicle to do it all? Just a thought.

What about putting AC in the truck, fixing truck up? Chick's dig trucks. Ha ha. Cost less. Toyota trucks known for long life.

I'd say get a LEAF with range more than bare min to commute. Hey 50 mi range may work for you. Again 2nd cars will cost you thousands up front and a grand a year (tax, tabs, insurance).

Charging at home? You may get away with level 1 charging (that is using standard 120v outlet). That is 120 volts x 15 amps = 1900 watts. It could take 9 hrs to charge. To install Level II (240v) could be $2000 or more. I did mine for $300. Bought a used 5kW clipper creek and installed it myself. Note S models only charge below 4 kW. The SV and SL charges at almost +7 kW. Also CHdeMO is the optional fast DC charger option. You don't need that.

*** Keep in mind to make battery last charging to 80% max is highly encouraged. So 50 mile range is 40 mile range. And you want to get home with 10 miles in tank. So 59 mi is 30 mi.***

Go for it. Just keep in mind you have fixed cost tax, tabs, insurance x2 for two rides. I recently dropped comprehensive insurance.

Keep in mind the electricity you charge with was mostly made with coal, natural gas, and some nuclear and hydro. Depending on part of country a portion also may be solar or wind, but a fraction of total power. I say this if doing tge EV thing for altruistic reasons. I do love my LEAF for what it is, not virtue signaling or any Gov incentive. I bought mine used.

Good luck. Get the best drive battery you can get. The S model is bare bones. SV has more technology and upgrades which worth while. SL adds better interior materials, I think fake leather. S model is fine, just don't pay too much. Overall they are bullet proof. Check tires and battery ( the 12volt one).

Last get or borrow LeafSpy Pro and see what the battery cells are like. its an app for android, and bought separate a bluetooth OBDII dongle. How many bars on battery capacity dash display? 12 max .meaning 100% to 85% SOH. A car with 50 mi range is going to be 8 or 7 bars I think. The first bar is roughly 15% and each subsequent bar is roughly 7.5%. 50 mi range is SOH 50% approximately. Mine is 10 bar +75%. So I might be ready to drop to 9 bar in next year. The 10 bars has held for 4 years. If I do math my LEAF lost 25%/10 yrs. 2.5% per year average. But it's not linear straight line. You can abuse battery, charge to 100% and run to limp mode over and over. 80% max charge and avoiding low charge state. As battery capacity gets limited you push range low before charging.

Any LEAF you consider buying charge it to 100% and see range. Set OD trip meter. Drive it until you have dashes for both range and percent remaining. What was driven range. The Guess-O-Meter range is not always accurate. It can be higher if driving with care very conservatively, coasting, accelerating slowly, not driving at high speed (over 50 mph), no AC, heat, lights, to boost average mikes/kW. Guess-O-Meter is estimated range. It's close but depends on how you drive.

Like gas car a heavy right foot affects range. It does have great fun acceleration off the line. Go for it. EV's are fun to play with. It's a great way to tip toe into the EV pond w/o spending $60,000.

I appreciate the advice and insight. That's pretty much what I had come up with myself. I have no plans to sell my truck. I'm 63 and very set in my ways. I like old trucks as a daily driver. I even took the CD player out and put a cassette player in so I can play my old 1980s mix tapes. So selling/upgrading the Toyota is out of the question. I get offers to buy it constantly. No thanks. It will outlast me. They can buy it at my estate sale when I'm dead.

 

[DaveE128]

My experience of getting a 2015 leaf with 140k miles on it, 70% battery degradation, 60 miles range, for use on a 35 mile round trip commute is that it's become our first choice car for as many trips as possible, limited only by having less seats than we have people in the family and it not really being convenient for longer trips. Our other vehicle is a 2020 Ford 7 seater diesel.

I would get LeafSpy, check the SOH before buying, and spend a little more to get one with more range than you need as I think you'll end up wanting to use for more than just your commute.

They're great cars, I really like driving mine.

 

[Drew21]

Keep in mind the electricity you charge with was mostly made with coal, natural gas, and some nuclear and hydro. Depending on part of country a portion also may be solar or wind, but a fraction of total power.

While this is still true in the strict sense, most states and/or energy providers allow you to specify that you want to receive renewable energy.

Obviously National Grid didn't run a new power line from the nearest solar farm to our house when we signed up for this program a few years ago, but the extra money we pay each month helps fund continued renewable energy expansion.

Eventually we hope to install solar, but that's a few years in the future.

If anyone is interested, all sorts of state-specific energy facts can be found at:
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/state-and-us-territory-data.php

 

[gmcjetpilot]

While this is still true in the strict sense, most states and/or energy providers allow you to specify that you want to receive renewable energy.

Obviously National Grid didn't run a new power line from the nearest solar farm to our house when we signed up for this program a few years ago, but the extra money we pay each month helps fund continued renewable energy expansion.

Eventually we hope to install solar, but that's a few years in the future.

If anyone is interested, all sorts of state-specific energy facts can be found at:
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/state-and-us-territory-data.php

Ha ha they specify where your energy came from. That is well silly. Electricity is fundgable. Electrons don't care.

The grid can not support the 2035 EV mandate (100% new pax vehicles be EV) that Gov pulled out it's buricratic hinny. Why force people to drive EV's they don't need, can't afford, don't want, can't charge easily or cheaply, costing economy a loss of trillions. To save the planet? To make china rich? These are dubious propositions.

Why give people $7500 to buy a car and EV makers $100's of millions in green tax credits (which they sell to other manufacturers for profit). It's not free market capitalism. It's a house of cards falling. When battery technology improves 10 fold not relying on rare earth materials, cost drop 10 fold. performance goes up x10 at 1/10 cost, may be. You still are not fly airliners at 37,000 feet, a third way around the world with 250 passengers with electric. We can go back to the 19th century. But big ships are not sailing the 7 sea's with batteries only either. Let's get real. Oil is good . Solar and wind and EV's are adjuncts, supplements, that without mass tax payers substudies would not be practical or widely accepted except in the niche they occupy. Forcing it will be folly.

$7.8 billion in government cash only built 8 E.V chargers in 2.5 yrs. And you belive you can specify the electricity to your house be produced only with solar. Good luck at night and overcast days, rain, snow. I have panels. By the time they "pay for theirself" in 20 yrs the panels and batteries are landfill. Batteries and Solar panels are hard to recycle. BTW you can't have any of my coal or natural gas power that is 24/7/365 reliable.

Why am I here? I owned and still drive a LEAF for 9 years as a second car. It's a luxury to have two cars. I like it, but it's not for everyone, like solar, which is crazy expensive (without tax payers substudies). It should be free choice and my tax money shoukd not be making people/corporations green rich on tax substudies. It's a racket. Fear mongering aside earth will end in 12 yrs if you don't do what government says, wind, solar, EV's are great but not green.

With out fossil fuels there would be no solar, wind, EV's, you and I
would be screwed. Thank God for oil. CO2 is NOT a poison and man made stuff is a miniscule fraction of naturally occurring stuff in the Atmo. More over planetary cycles and that glowing thing in sky (sun) we have no control over determines our climite not your LEAF or mine. Drive your EV in good health and enjoy, but saving the planet it is not. Again new batteries x10 better, and nuclear power x100, and beefing grid up x100, then we can talk (in 100 yrs may be). We shoukd not de-industrialize, a
sabotage or economy, and became weak for green agenda.

 

[Dooglas]

Keep in mind the electricity you charge with was mostly made with coal, natural gas, and some nuclear and hydro. Depending on part of country a portion also may be solar or wind, but a fraction of total power. I say this if doing tge EV thing for altruistic reasons. I do love my LEAF for what it is, not virtue signaling or any Gov incentive. I bought mine used.

As you say - that depends on where you live. In the Northwest US where I live, our power is primarily hydro, with some nuclear and natural gas, virtually no coal, and an increasing proportion of wind and solar. Add to this, my home has roof top solar and virtually all my charging is done at home. I don't say any of that for altruistic reasons - simply in the interest of accuracy. I am on my third Leaf and bought the current one used. I enjoy driving it, it meets my needs, and I am saving a boatload of money on operating costs.

 

[cornbinder89]

2035 you can still drive any vehicle you want. If and it is a big if, a few states band SALE of NEW ICE vehicles, it doesn't stop you from running what you have.
If you are so concerned about it, don't buy new! Buying used helps clean up the mess we have already made.
If the grid can support you cooking dinner at the highest grid load time of the day, it can support charging in off peak times, a EVSE and an electric range draw the same,

 

[William Mattocks]

The grid can not support the 2035 EV mandate (100% new pax vehicles be EV) that Gov pulled out it's buricratic hinny.

There is no such mandate for the federal government. California announced that all new vehicles sold (in California) will have to be EVs by 2035, but then, they've announced a lot of things that haven't come to pass. It remains to be seen if it will happen there.

But even that is not a 'mandate' that 'forces' people to drive EVs. There, as in the rest of the US, if you want to keep driving your ICE vehicle, you can.

I'll be 75 years old then, assuming I'm still pushing air in and out. I won't really care, to be honest.

 

[Drew21]

Solar and wind and EV's are adjuncts, supplements, that without mass tax payers substudies would not be practical or widely accepted except in the niche they occupy.

If you're bothered by the subsidies in the market to encourage renewable energy development and EV purchases, definitely don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain who's been paying massive subsidies to the fossil fuel industry for decades and decades.

In many parts of the US (and other parts of the world), renewable energy generation is already cheaper than producing energy from fossil fuels.

Also, just a minor point, but I in no way claimed that when you opt in to renewable energy programs from a company like National Grid you get a direct line of energy from a renewable source. Instead, as I clearly stated, the (small) additional fee you pay per kWh goes to funding additional renewable energy development which benefits everyone.

CO2 is NOT a poison and man made stuff is a miniscule fraction of naturally occurring stuff in the Atmo. More over planetary cycles and that glowing thing in sky (sun) we have no control over determines our climite not your LEAF or mine.

Down the road a ways there's a small creek full of clean, natural, non-poisonous water. Seems like the perfect place to submerge my head for a few hours to really clear my mind and ponder your logic. If eight glasses of water per day is good for me, a few thousands gallons must be awesome, right?

 

[rsbrax]

Ha ha they specify where your energy came from. That is well silly. Electricity is fundgable. Electrons don't care.

The grid can not support the 2035 EV mandate (100% new pax vehicles be EV) that Gov pulled out it's buricratic hinny. Why force people to drive EV's they don't need, can't afford, don't want, can't charge easily or cheaply, costing economy a loss of trillions. To save the planet? To make china rich? These are dubious propositions.

Why give people $7500 to buy a car and EV makers $100's of millions in green tax credits (which they sell to other manufacturers for profit). It's not free market capitalism. It's a house of cards falling. When battery technology improves 10 fold not relying on rare earth materials, cost drop 10 fold. performance goes up x10 at 1/10 cost, may be. You still are not fly airliners at 37,000 feet, a third way around the world with 250 passengers with electric. We can go back to the 19th century. But big ships are not sailing the 7 sea's with batteries only either. Let's get real. Oil is good . Solar and wind and EV's are adjuncts, supplements, that without mass tax payers substudies would not be practical or widely accepted except in the niche they occupy. Forcing it will be folly.

$7.8 billion in government cash only built 8 E.V chargers in 2.5 yrs. And you belive you can specify the electricity to your house be produced only with solar. Good luck at night and overcast days, rain, snow. I have panels. By the time they "pay for theirself" in 20 yrs the panels and batteries are landfill. Batteries and Solar panels are hard to recycle. BTW you can't have any of my coal or natural gas power that is 24/7/365 reliable.

Why am I here? I owned and still drive a LEAF for 9 years as a second car. It's a luxury to have two cars. I like it, but it's not for everyone, like solar, which is crazy expensive (without tax payers substudies). It should be free choice and my tax money shoukd not be making people/corporations green rich on tax substudies. It's a racket. Fear mongering aside earth will end in 12 yrs if you don't do what government says, wind, solar, EV's are great but not green.

With out fossil fuels there would be no solar, wind, EV's, you and I
would be screwed. Thank God for oil. CO2 is NOT a poison and man made stuff is a miniscule fraction of naturally occurring stuff in the Atmo. More over planetary cycles and that glowing thing in sky (sun) we have no control over determines our climite not your LEAF or mine. Drive your EV in good health and enjoy, but saving the planet it is not. Again new batteries x10 better, and nuclear power x100, and beefing grid up x100, then we can talk (in 100 yrs may be). We shoukd not de-industrialize, a
sabotage or economy, and became weak for green agenda.

Increasing levels of CO2 in the atmosphere are poison! Listen to the scientists. EVs provide a way to move away from fossil fuels by using renewable energy technology.

 

[Stanton]

I even took the CD player out and put a cassette player in so I can play my old 1980s mix tapes.

I like it!

 

[Wrench7747]

SL adds better interior materials, I think fake leather.

I don't know about all years, but my 2015 SL has real leather seats.