Wrong approach to charging infrastructure

[cguteliu]

After a weekend trip to New York City, I again was frustrated that I had to leave my car parked for 48 hours without access to charging. The garage I parked in offered three 6.6 kw chargers but were constantly occupied. When one would be freed up, it would immediately be jumped on by another user who would charge and then leave their car there while not charging for several hours.

As an EV owner, I feel as though we are going down the wrong path with charging infrastructure. At locations like parking garages or workplaces, instead of installing two chargers which are constantly occupied, I would greatly appreciate outlets that I could plug my own charger into. At these locations where people are leaving their cars for 8 plus hours, you could easily trickle charge your way to 40 or more miles or, if you are staying for several days in a hotel lot or garage, hundreds of miles.

My point is, wouldn't it be better to install 10 or 15 spots to trickle charge that would be available more frequently vs 2 spots that are constantly occupied? Again, not at all spots but at these certain places where cars would be parked for long periods. I'm sure it is less expensive to install outlets and less of a need to upgrade electrical services because the charging would be spread out more instead of being an immediate high drain.

Maybe this is just one person's opinion but I find most parking garage chargers useless because they are always occupied by fully charged cars.

 

[BillAinCT]

+1 and include 14-50R receptacles to allow L2 for those carrying the OEM EVSE.

 

[Toby]

+1 and include 14-50R receptacles to allow L2 for those carrying the OEM EVSE.

Charging an EV away from home should be as easy and convenient as buying gasoline. What we have seen so far is tokenism, mostly sponsored by government grants. The only charging that I can rely on is the 14-50R receptacle / OEM EVSE in my garage.

 

[cguteliu]

I just feel as though too much of the focus is on fast charging (which is necessary) and not enough on the endpoints of trips. If we can charge up to full while the car is sitting anyway, it makes fast charging less necessary. For instance, on the trip I was discussing, I had to stop 60 minutes in for a 40 minute charge.
I think these government grants could actually be useful but not when being used to install what are essentially tokens as you said. Two charging stations is cute but pretty useless. 15-20 outlets that can be plugged into for the same installation cost to the location would be much more useful in my eyes.

 

[MikeinPA]

I see several locking enclosures designed to secure a portable EVSE. And some vehicles are charging at 11 kw L2, so even a dumb receptacle would still provide fairly good charge rates. But how would the user be billed for electricity? something like this? https://www.landisgyr.com/product/landisgyr-single-phase-element-card-operated-meter/

Overall a good idea especially for vehicles with faster L2.

 

[cguteliu]

L2 would be great but I'm even talking about the basic L1 household 3 prong outlet. It seems like the less power each individual outlet would draw, the less the installing location would have to worry about upgrading their electric service. If we can have 20 cars all gaining back 40 miles over the course of a work day with a trickle charge, that seems to be a more sustainable and reasonable model than asking somebody to have enough juice to supply 20 cars all drawing the amps needed to charge at L2. If there are locations that are willing to do that, terrific!

But I'm thinking local school districts or government building providing hookups like this in their lots while the teachers/students/government workers are all in the building for eight hours. It would give them all enough to easily make their commute home.

 

[MikeinPA]

OK. Supply a locking box, and a coin operated relay similar to the machines at the laundromat. 20 amp circuit. Many places could add several of these, at much lower cost than an L2 pedestal. Camp grounds, hotels, parking at work, parking garages...

The average commute is about 40 miles roundtrip. https://www.axios.com/2024/03/24/average-commute-distance-us-map

At a hospital or retirement place there are typical only a few chargers, and there will frequently be no available spots. But if the employees, or residents, parked at the L1 spots, then the L2 station is much more likely to be available for short term visitors.

Yes, one could serve a lot more EVs with L1 charging spots, at the lowest upfront cost. Good idea.

 

[marshallinwash]

NYC is a tough nut to crack. But there companies working on it.

https://www.itselectric.us/how-it-works

https://www.orangecharger.com/

https://grizzl-e.com/products/grizzl-e-ultimate/

https://www.voltpost.com/

 

[marshallinwash]

L2 would be great but I'm even talking about the basic L1 household 3 prong outlet. It seems like the less power each individual outlet would draw, the less the installing location would have to worry about upgrading their electric service. If we can have 20 cars all gaining back 40 miles over the course of a work day with a trickle charge, that seems to be a more sustainable and reasonable model than asking somebody to have enough juice to supply 20 cars all drawing the amps needed to charge at L2. If there are locations that are willing to do that, terrific!

But I'm thinking local school districts or government building providing hookups like this in their lots while the teachers/students/government workers are all in the building for eight hours. It would give them all enough to easily make their commute home.

Well they are slowly doing just that here in Washington state. Grants have been slowly trickling out to supply L2 charging at apartments, schools, motels and so on.

One big issue has been the fentanyl zombie attacks on the charging cables. The state needs to start requiring the scrap dealers to mail out checks for copper.

 

[Kenny]

After a weekend trip to New York City, I again was frustrated that I had to leave my car parked for 48 hours without access to charging. The garage I parked in offered three 6.6 kw chargers but were constantly occupied. When one would be freed up, it would immediately be jumped on by another user who would charge and then leave their car there while not charging for several hours.

As an EV owner, I feel as though we are going down the wrong path with charging infrastructure. At locations like parking garages or workplaces, instead of installing two chargers which are constantly occupied, I would greatly appreciate outlets that I could plug my own charger into. At these locations where people are leaving their cars for 8 plus hours, you could easily trickle charge your way to 40 or more miles or, if you are staying for several days in a hotel lot or garage, hundreds of miles.

My point is, wouldn't it be better to install 10 or 15 spots to trickle charge that would be available more frequently vs 2 spots that are constantly occupied? Again, not at all spots but at these certain places where cars would be parked for long periods. I'm sure it is less expensive to install outlets and less of a need to upgrade electrical services because the charging would be spread out more instead of being an immediate high drain.

Maybe this is just one person's opinion but I find most parking garage chargers useless because they are always occupied by fully charged cars.

this is why I have always disagreed with the concept of free charging. It just results in greedy people hogging chargers. Charge a fair price but never make it free. If the operator wants to offer free charging make it for a fixed time like 2 hours but charge for every minute after that to discourage misuse.

 

[cguteliu]

this is why I have always disagreed with the concept of free charging. It just results in greedy people hogging chargers. Charge a fair price but never make it free. If the operator wants to offer free charging make it for a fixed time like 2 hours but charge for every minute after that to discourage misuse.

Very true. A penalty for remaining plugged in would prevent people from sitting idle. However, who wants to run out from work or lets say the person parks in a garage in NJ and then takes a train into NYC for work. They can't come back and unplug.

I understand there may be a need for an L2 charger sometimes but in the way we lead our day to day lives, I think it is overestimated. L1 would be cheaper, less taxing on the grid and supply the needs of 90% of people. I have not installed a L2 charger at my house after a full year of owning a leaf (and 4 years of having a plug in hybrid). On only maybe 3 or 4 occasions have I thought it might be nice to have L2.

If L1 can add back about 5 miles per hour and most people spend 8 hours at their job, that means you would need to be commuting over 40 miles each way for the L1 not to completely refill your car for the trip home.

 

[marshallinwash]

this is why I have always disagreed with the concept of free charging. It just results in greedy people hogging chargers. Charge a fair price but never make it free. If the operator wants to offer free charging make it for a fixed time like 2 hours but charge for every minute after that to discourage misuse.

I use free charging when it's available. I don't get upset if it's not available. I think free is a great price!

From what I've experienced, it hasn't been a problem with greedy people. The problem is more likely vandalism to the charging station around here.

 

[marshallinwash]

Very true. A penalty for remaining plugged in would prevent people from sitting idle. However, who wants to run out from work or lets say the person parks in a garage in NJ and then takes a train into NYC for work. They can't come back and unplug.

I understand there may be a need for an L2 charger sometimes but in the way we lead our day to day lives, I think it is overestimated. L1 would be cheaper, less taxing on the grid and supply the needs of 90% of people. I have not installed a L2 charger at my house after a full year of owning a leaf (and 4 years of having a plug in hybrid). On only maybe 3 or 4 occasions have I thought it might be nice to have L2.

If L1 can add back about 5 miles per hour and most people spend 8 hours at their job, that means you would need to be commuting over 40 miles each way for the L1 not to completely refill your car for the trip home.

The key word in you comment is that you can charge at home.

I could have done fine using the 120 volt outlet in the garage. However, my local utility chipped in $600 in credits, and I was able to do the work to install the L2 charging station myself, so it was just a couple hundred dollars more to have L2 charging at home.

I think most of us to see the need for a variety of charging options, and I think we are slowly seeing that start to happen.

 

[Jamesjeff]

+1 and include 14-50R receptacles to allow L2 for those carrying the OEM EVSE.

What on earth does all that say! What is 14-50R, the OEM EVSE, +1!
I do agree with marshallinwash though.

 

[Bryon Booth]

What on earth does all that say! What is 14-50R, the OEM EVSE, +1!
I do agree with marshallinwash though.

You lot need to copy Japans system.......and the one I have set up...

 

[Gerhard]

this is why I have always disagreed with the concept of free charging. It just results in greedy people hogging chargers. Charge a fair price but never make it free. If the operator wants to offer free charging make it for a fixed time like 2 hours but charge for every minute after that to discourage misuse.

In Ontario there is a charging provider called SWTCH and they provide two hours free charging and then charge $3.00/hour for 6kw level 2 charging, they are infinitely better than the chargers that provide free charging at public libraries, town halls etc. I explained to a non EV driver that there is a difference between having a charger that is constantly used by a few people that live near by and and a successful charger that may only be used 4 or 5 hours a day but is available to folks that need a top up to reach their destination. The free charger is a benefit to a few local cheapskates while the paid charger is of benefit to the traveling public.

 

[henrydehoja]

In Ontario there is a charging provider called SWTCH and they provide two hours free charging and then charge $3.00/hour for 6kw level 2 charging, they are infinitely better than the chargers that provide free charging at public libraries, town halls etc.

Here in my area of the US, a lot of businesses and public buildings that have ChargePoint Level 2 stations started using that approach over the last 3 years. I have seen local libraries go from full 24/7 free to 1-2hrs free with $$/hr afterwards. I have seen those full free stations get abused and exploited over the years, so I don't blame them for changing.