DougWantsALeaf
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Re: Sono Sion Unveiled, World’s First Production Solar Car – Up To 18 Miles PV Added Range Per Day

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:38 pm

I still wish that Nissan would put useful solar on the roof for an upcharge. Even 200-300 Watt Hours worth would add a dynamic of range extension for commuting, and emergency power that would be very useful. Certainly worth a $500-$1K upgrade. A full kilowatt, even better.
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rmay635703
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Re: Sono Sion Unveiled, World’s First Production Solar Car – Up To 18 Miles PV Added Range Per Day

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:11 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:I still wish that Nissan would put useful solar on the roof for an upcharge. Even 200-300 Watt Hours worth would add a dynamic of range extension for commuting, and emergency power that would be very useful. Certainly worth a $500-$1K upgrade. A full kilowatt, even better.
It could also run a cooling fan and keep the 12v from dying

SageBrush
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Re: Sono Sion Unveiled, World’s First Production Solar Car – Up To 18 Miles PV Added Range Per Day

Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:20 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:I still wish that Nissan would put useful solar on the roof for an upcharge. Even 200-300 Watt Hours worth would add a dynamic of range extension for commuting, and emergency power that would be very useful. Certainly worth a $500-$1K upgrade. A full kilowatt, even better.
I'd rather spend the money on extra battery. Nowadays $1,000 might buy up to 5 kWh battery. Battery Vs PV on a car is not exactly an apples to apples comparison but it is close enough for most people's use profile that I think the cheaper alternative will prevail.
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GRA
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Re: Sono Sion Unveiled, World’s First Production Solar Car – Up To 18 Miles PV Added Range Per Day

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:25 pm

SageBrush wrote:
DougWantsALeaf wrote:I still wish that Nissan would put useful solar on the roof for an upcharge. Even 200-300 Watt Hours worth would add a dynamic of range extension for commuting, and emergency power that would be very useful. Certainly worth a $500-$1K upgrade. A full kilowatt, even better.
I'd rather spend the money on extra battery. Nowadays $1,000 might buy up to 5 kWh battery. Battery Vs PV on a car is not exactly an apples to apples comparison but it is close enough for most people's use profile that I think the cheaper alternative will prevail.
But are batteries the cheaper option, and do they provide the most flexibility? For apartment dwellers who have to park on the street, and renters generally who can't charge at home, PV is likely a better choice, at least in sunnier climates. PV should also be cheaper than batteries and is definitely lighter, making the vehicle more efficient.

PV big enough to run the hotel loads on hot days will help any car's efficiency, and also being able to charge the traction battery can provide some people with all the charging they need. I'm obviously an exception to the typical user, but I could use a car with an array the size (860Wp) of the Toyota Prime now being tested and be able to fully charge a BEV-sized pack between trips. For people with more typical commutes, a PHEV that can fully charge at work will replace some or all of their gas, with no other infrastructure required.

Specific to people like me who often sleep in their cars, the ability to run the hotel HVAC while doing so and then leave the car for a day or two while we backpack or ski, knowing that it will be charging during the day when we're gone, is fantastic.

I look forward to seeing useful rather than token-sized PV optionally on cars, esp. PEVs, in the not too distant future. Those of us who know we will benefit from it will choose it, and the rest can save themselves some money and ignore it.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: Sono Sion Unveiled, World’s First Production Solar Car – Up To 18 Miles PV Added Range Per Day

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:25 pm

^^ It is not that simple. Think of all the ways this car PV will generate less than STC:

Shade from trees, buildings, clouds
Sub-optimal orientation for the time of day

Compared to a known quantity in the battery.

I'm not against car PV in the slightest but it will have to compete with battery on price and it is mostly an opportunistic charge sort of thing. You cannot rely on it on a daily basis.
Last edited by SageBrush on Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Re: Sono Sion Unveiled, World’s First Production Solar Car – Up To 18 Miles PV Added Range Per Day

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:58 pm

People would certainly need to know if they had a spot to park with 6+ hours of full sun a day, or the equivalent.
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GRA
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Re: Sono Sion Unveiled, World’s First Production Solar Car – Up To 18 Miles PV Added Range Per Day

Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:50 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:25 pm
^^ It is not that simple. Think of all the ways this car PV will generate less than STC:

Shade from trees, buildings, clouds
Sub-optimal orientation for the time of day

Compared to a known quantity in the battery.

I'm not against car PV in the slightest but it will have to compete with battery on price and it is mostly an opportunistic charge sort of thing. You cannot rely on it on a daily basis.
Missed this post somehow. Sure, you can't rely on it on a daily basis, but not everyone needs to. As to shade, I assume everyone who bothers to buy such an option will be aware of these issues, and park their car accordingly - where the sun is and where it will be in a few hours are something I routinely take into account now when choosing where to park. Granted, given my background I'm much more aware of it than the typical car buyer, but the people who will opt for this initially will be early adopters, and they won't be typical in either their knowledge of or interest in solar matters. As to less than ideal orientation, a flat panel only loses about 11% compared to the maximum in Northern California latitudes. If you live in a sunny climate at or south of these latitudes, as in say New Mexico, it's a win. If you live in Frostbite Falls, Minnesota, nah.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Sono Sion Unveiled, World’s First Production Solar Car – Up To 18 Miles PV Added Range Per Day

Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:35 pm

GCR:
Sono Motors looks for startup shortcuts to bring solar car to market
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... -to-market

Solar powered cars generally face one glaring, gamestopping hurdle: Today’s solar cells don’t produce enough power to drive a standard-sized car any distance. That would take more solar cells than there is space on top of a car.

Don’t tell that to Sono Motors, though. The Munich, Germany-based company, plans to bring a car covered with solar panels to production in Europe late this year, and to reach full production toward the end of 2020.

There’s a caveat, of course: Its initial Sion model can only cover an average of about 21 miles (34 kilometers) on solar power, on an average day in Germany.

With a 35-kwh battery, though, it provides plenty of buffer for cloudy days and a total plug-in range of 158 miles. Most Germans drive only 14 miles a day, the company says, and few have garages or even private parking spaces where they can install a charger, so having a modest solar charging capacity can alleviate the need for daily charging. . . .

What the executives are most proud of are Sono’s proprietary new solar cells, which will be integrated into the surface of the body—roof, hood, doors, fenders, and tailgate—rather than stuck on as on the existing prototype. The new cells are visible—barely—in Sion’s virtual body panels. . . .

. . . the initial car will be available only in Europe, where crash standards are easier to meet for small, light vehicles. That will save millions in development costs. The vast majority of deposits (80 percent) are from Germany, says COO Ulrich Hoernke.

Also, the polymer body panels, even with embedded solar panels, cost only 1 percent as much to make as steel after accounting for buying stamping dies to bend steel body panels, said Christians. Those body panels will be impregnated with color, not painted, also saving enormous manufacturing costs. Thomas Haupsch, Sono’s chief operating officer, says 80 percent of the energy used in traditional car factories is in the paint shop.

The Sion will come in only one configuration, much like the Ford Model T: Sono surveyed its 10,000 deposit holders whether they wanted white or black, and they narrowly chose black.

Rather than looking for land to build its own factory, Sono will build the Sion at a contract manufacturing facility, NEVS, the former Saab factory in Trollhatten, Sweden.

Sono is working on an all-new prototype that is more than an update of last spring’s prototype that sits in the Sono headquarters lobby. The biggest news (literally) is a stretch in the car’s overall length from 87 to 98 inches, to give the back seat enough legroom for adults to be comfortable, as well as a bit more cargo space. Large rear quarter windows behind the doors distinguish it visually.

Sono is building a virtual prototype of the updated design, which visitors can examine inside virtual-reality goggles in its lobby “showroom.” The company says it is currently working to raise money to build a new prototype, which could prove a stumbling block for the car’s planned production timing. For now, the company continues to target production of 43,000 Sions a year in 2021.

Ulrich Hörnke, Sion’s chief financial officer, says deposits for the car average $1,300 apiece. (Potential buyers have to put down at least 1,000 euros to secure a spot on the list. Some have already paid the full target price of just over $23,000.) For that, Sono says, the car will come with all the latest active driver safety aids, such as automatic emergency braking and active lane control, but executives say they aren’t aiming for a full self-driving system.

Sono is counting on two new technologies to set the car apart. First, the company is developing its own touch-screen control system, which incorporates its own car-sharing service, so owners can make money sharing their cars.

Secondly, the company uses its own vehicle-to-grid technology that produces AC output for the grid and allows one Sono to charge another. Germany is ahead of the U.S. in developing standards and technology for vehicle-to-grid charging. . . .

I wish them luck, and think this does have a real chance of success in its niche. Given how much time my car spends parked in my driveway or at trailheads during the day, having integrated PV in a BEV/PHEV would definitely be of value to me, if the extra cost isn't too high.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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