Help me choose! Leaf vs Cmax Energi vs Volt and others...

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tangfj

Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
16
Location
Chicago, IL
First post!

Hey guys, I'm considering trading in my BMW 135i for a more practical car as I have a little one on the way... I'm considering a MY14 Leaf, C-Max Energi, Volt, or i3 (and maybe either the VW e-golf or Audi A3 e-tron if they ever release them in the US). Was hoping to get some advice from you guys on which one may be better for me?

Currently I live in Chicago and do not drive much... I go through about 200 or so miles and a tank of gas every 1.5 months with my current car. At most I may drive maybe 30-40 miles round trip to the suburbs but that's only on the weekends and its maybe once a month. Maybe 2-3 times a year we may consider using the car for a much longer trip of 300 miles or so for a drive down to St. Louis. My wife may also use the car and her round trip commute is less than 10 miles right now.

For my day to day needs, I just want something reliable that'll get me around town without having to go to the gas station any more. Also, of importance to me will be usable cargo space as I'm sure we'll be lugging more around with the baby coming. I would also like the car to have a good user interface to use with my iPhone but that's probably the least important thing to me (although from what I understand a bad user interface can be really annoying).

Anyway, if you guys could help me out with some pros and cons I'd appreciate it! I'll hopefully be test driving the cars in the next couple of weeks.

One more thing... anybody have any idea when 2015 cars would generally be announced? It's been a long time since I've bought a new car so I'd hate to buy a 2014 only to have the 2015 come out only months later.

Thanks!

(I hope I'm posting this in the right place... if not please let me know!)
 
You can also ask this at http://www.gm-volt.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I live in a Chicago suburb and drive a 2011 Volt. 45 miles in the summer on the battery and ~30 in the winter. Obviously you have 9 gallons of gas to use after that. I've gotten 40 miles per gallon on many trips driving 65 mph. I drive 72% on the battery.
 
As far as an EV (Leaf) vs. a PHEV (Volt, Energi, PiP), the biggest factor is going to be if this is going to be your only car. If so, do you have convenient access to another car, such as a friend, relative, or car sharing service? If not, you are better off getting a PHEV. With a baby on the way, your wife may not feel secure in having just an all-electric car; she'll want to know that she can jump in the car at any time and not be worried about if it has enough charge to make it to the hospital.

Also, what is your home charging situation like? Do you have your own home with your own garage, or are you a renter or condo/co-op owner who has to share garage space with others? If you fall into the latter, make sure that the management/HOA/co-op has no problem with you plugging into their outlets. A couple of Leafers found out the hard way that they were no longer allowed to plug in at their apartments and condos.

With a baby, I do not recommend taking a long road trip with the Leaf. If this is your only car, rent a regular car or hybrid instead for that trip. However, if charging at home will not be a problem, this car would work perfectly for your wife's commute.

As far as cargo space, the Volt is probably the most limited of the choices you mention. The C-Max will likely have more room than the others, though the battery of the Energi version does cut into cargo space (though not to the extreme of the Focus Electric).
 
tangfj said:
Hey guys, I'm considering trading in my BMW 135i for a more practical car as I have a little one on the way... I'm considering a MY14 Leaf, C-Max Energi, Volt, or i3 (and maybe either the VW e-golf or Audi A3 e-tron if they ever release them in the US). Was hoping to get some advice from you guys on which one may be better for me?
...

For my day to day needs, I just want something reliable that'll get me around town without having to go to the gas station any more. Also, of importance to me will be usable cargo space as I'm sure we'll be lugging more around with the baby coming.
Since you wanted something reliable, you may as well rule out the C-Max Energi. It got a dubious honor at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/10/2013-consumer-reports-reliability-survey/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

i3? It's brand new to the US and the signs I'm seeing on the BMW i3 Facebook w/US owners group are pretty bad so far. But reliability isn't one of BMW's strong suits nor is that of VW or Audi. I doubt I'd ever want an electric vehicle from VAG, considering they're not known for their electrical related (reliability) prowess. e-Golf will be coming, but I don't think to your state anytime soon.

That leaves the Volt and Leaf. FWIW, I am NOT a GM fan, but it seems virtually everyone w/the Volt seems happy theirs. It previously had done well in CR and did amazingly well at http://insideevs.com/chevy-volt-tops-j-d-power-three-year-dependability-study/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. (I don't consider 3 years to be "long-term" not a a long enough measure, but anyway...) '11 Volt did get above average reliability in Consumer Reports but not far above average. '12 and '13 have average reliability ratings, so far.

Reliability scores in CR of the Leaf have done very well w/'11 and '12 being much better than average while '13 is beter than average.

Since you want "usable cargo space", per Specs tab of http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34699&id=33900" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, Volt is classified as a compact while Leaf is a midsize car. The sticker at http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091844_2014-bmw-i3-electric-car-rated-at-81-miles-124-mpge-breaking" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; confirms that the i3 is a subcompact.

These might help:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=267884#p267884" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=332862#p332862" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
RonDawg said:
As far as cargo space, the Volt is probably the most limited of the choices you mention. The C-Max will likely have more room than the others, though the battery of the Energi version does cut into cargo space (though not to the extreme of the Focus Electric).

I stand corrected. Per Edmunds, the Leaf actually has more seats-up cargo room than the C-Max Energi, but the non-plug-in version has slightly more than the Leaf:

C-Max Hybrid: 24.5 cubic feet
Leaf: 24 cubic feet
C-Max Energi: 19.2 cubic feet
Volt: 10.6 cubic feet

Both C-Max versions have more "maximum" cargo room than the Leaf:

C-Max Hybrid: 52.6 cubic feet
C-Max Energi: 42.8 cubic feet
Leaf: 30 cubic feet
Volt: N/A

Edmunds does not yet have cargo capacity info for the BMW i3.
 
From your description, you would find yourself with stale gas in a Volt, running the car in gasoline mode often just to use it up. As long as you are willing to rent or borrow a car for those rare long trips, the Leaf would seem to be the best choice, if you can charge at home. L-1 charging with the supplied charging cable should be fine for you, as long as you have a free circuit in or near the garage or parking area. "Free" means it has to be able to handle a 12 amp continuous load, which means a 15 amp or 20 amp circuit with no more than a couple of lights on it now. L-2 charging with 240 volts is usually better, but unless you want to be able to use the car repeatedly most days, for more miles than you mentioned, it's optional.

I further suggest you lease the car. If you find you love it when the lease is up, you can buy it for a reasonable price. If not, you are free to get a better car in two or three years. Go for a zero money down lease, or close to it, so if the car gets wrecked you aren't losing a large down payment.
 
As an owner of a volt and a leaf I can give you a good idea between the two. I have also have two friends that have gotten a c-max energi so I can give a pretty good assessment of those too.

Firstly, for long trips that are that infrequent (twice a year), it is cheaper to rent than to buy a bigger/longer range car that is more expensive. The misconception that you have to have a car for every eventuality will cost. The break even point is ~ 1 month. So if you rented once a month it would break even (this is an average for all vehicles, like buying a car and renting a truck when needed, etc.). So don't hang up on the long road trips.

As for the commute and driving. The Leaf and i3 will definitely get you there and back on electricity only. The Volt *may* but it will be close (my wife's 2012 volt frequently hits 45+ on battery only despite the EPA range of only 35). The C-max will always cost you gas as the electric range is only 21 EPA.

For space, the Leaf and C-max are both considered midsize cars with the c-max having the most cabin room of all. The trunk is smaller though, the leaf 24 ft^3 while the c-max is 19 ft^3. The volt, being a compact car has less interior room, but its trunk is decently large for its class - just one less cubic foot than the c-max. The i3 i think is a compact class, but I couldn't find the specs.

As for reliability and feel - my wife LOVES her volt and she had a small sports car (Audi TT) before and prefers the volt. It is a very nice vehicle and has held up well against her ~100 mile daily commute. The leaf is also a fantastic car, and with the 40 mile max driving, it will still do well even if you loose capacity or it gets cold. My friends both enjoy the c-max as well and really like the roominess and the higher loading (you don't have to stoop down much to get in). Unfortunately I can't say much on the i3, I have only seen it once and never got to get in, but from first glance, its probably the same interior size as a Volt (maybe slightly more), but is taller. Trunk probably the same size.

So really it comes down to what you want. All the cars have great phone integration, so that shouldn't be a problem (I can't remember if the c-max needed the optional radio for it). If you want interior room, the leaf or the c-max is your bread winner. If you want trunk space, the leaf is the best (by a decent margin). The i3 is super nice, but its also a good deal more than the other 3. If you want all electric driving, you would probably not want the c-max and maybe not a volt. So it really depends on your goals.
 
Just a side note, I know people with gas cars who say they never take road trips in their own cars, they always rent. The reasons they give are they don't want to put the miles on their own cars (can be a factor if leasing) but the stronger reason given is they don't want to risk having to deal with problems with a car while on a trip. I hadn't really thought about it, but it's true, if you're 500 miles from home and your own car breaks down or you get in a little fender bender you have to deal with it where you are. It could be minor or in some cases it could be days. With a rental car, at least from a national chain, you just switch to another car and it's their problem.
 
Except for having to deal with their loss of business clause if you do not have appropriate insurance coverage...

LTLFTcomposite said:
With a rental car, at least from a national chain, you just switch to another car and it's their problem.
 
cwerdna said:
Since you wanted something reliable, you may as well rule out the C-Max Energi. It got a dubious honor at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/10/2013-consumer-reports-reliability-survey/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
I have heard that most of the complaints about the C-Max Energi were not so much reliability issues with the drive-train, rather "electrical issues" with accessories, and especially a lot of complaints about the "MyFordTouch" infotainment system. I read a long PDF on the issue a few months back and I didn't see much that would be concern for being left stranded on the side of the road or anything like that. Most of it was just annoyances.
 
I usually steer people to the Volt, but if you only go 40 miles per day max _and_ you've got a little one coming, I'm going to say Leaf. People say the Volt has a large trunk, and maybe it does, but it's still 10 cu ft vs 24 for the Leaf. You can lay a Bob stroller in the bottom of the Leaf trunk (the newer models without the charger crammed back there) and still have plenty of room on top of it for bags, toys, etc. Plus, you have the option of putting the car seat in the middle, which a lot of people prefer. And if you still have another car for road trips, you're golden.
 
Wow! Thanks a lot guys! It seems that the only consensus I am seeing is that the i3 probably is not a good fit. I think my next step will be to test drive each of the cars and see where to go from there.

One other question... Does anyone know when the next years models are generally announced? Late summer or early fall? I'm wondering if I should wait it out a bit for the MY15 cars to see if there are any appreciable differences?
 
Well for me the C-Max is pretty much not available here in VA.

For the Volt - Read the News on GM/Chevy recalls lately? I have a friend that just had his recall on the ignition switch done and they made him sign a waiver that they would not be liable if he had anything attached to his ignition key. And this was after they fixed it! I know this does not apply to the Volt, but these recalls are for 10 year old defects. I'll pass.

Leaf - Nation wide dealer support, good history (arguably there are some battery issues), major manufacturer, American made, great sales numbers (economy of scale), great incentives right now.

i3 - $$$$
 
tangfj said:
Wow! Thanks a lot guys! It seems that the only consensus I am seeing is that the i3 probably is not a good fit. I think my next step will be to test drive each of the cars and see where to go from there.

One other question... Does anyone know when the next years models are generally announced? Late summer or early fall? I'm wondering if I should wait it out a bit for the MY15 cars to see if there are any appreciable differences?

Nissan seems to be all over the map on Leaf MYs. Rumor has it the '15 will be out this Summer.

It seems to me that there is a consensus - if what you wrote about your needs and desires is correct. The Leaf is roomier than all but the Ford regular hybrid, and the Volt has a range that - and this is rare - works out to be *too high* for it to be worth buying for your needs. You'd almost never need the ICE (gas engine) but would still have to lug it around and maintain it. Can anyone see a reason for this guy *not* to at least lease a Leaf...?
 
adric22 said:
cwerdna said:
Since you wanted something reliable, you may as well rule out the C-Max Energi. It got a dubious honor at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/10/2013-consumer-reports-reliability-survey/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
I have heard that most of the complaints about the C-Max Energi were not so much reliability issues with the drive-train, rather "electrical issues" with accessories, and especially a lot of complaints about the "MyFordTouch" infotainment system. I read a long PDF on the issue a few months back and I didn't see much that would be concern for being left stranded on the side of the road or anything like that. Most of it was just annoyances.
Looking at my CR online subscription, their new car prediction for the C-Max energi is "Much worse than average" and "Based on the latest survey, we expect reliability of new models will be 226% below average".

Trouble spots include electrical system (horrible rating, solid black dot, which is the worst possible out of 5), climate system (2nd worst possible rating), and body hardware (also solid black dot). More about their definitions and reliability survey at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/04/reliability-histories/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
 
bbrowncods said:
For the Volt - Read the News on GM/Chevy recalls lately? I have a friend that just had his recall on the ignition switch done and they made him sign a waiver that they would not be liable if he had anything attached to his ignition key. And this was after they fixed it! I know this does not apply to the Volt, but these recalls are for 10 year old defects. I'll pass.
That's crazy re: that waiver AFTER the fix.

GM's been taking an intermittent pounding in the media lately, similar to but maybe not quite as bad as Toyota during the SUA PR disaster (where the bad press and coverage seemed relentless). As I posted elsewhere:
GM CEO axes 15 over switches, says 'no conspiracy':
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/06/05/gm-barra-report-valukas-failure/9985709/

GM's Mary Barra Fires 15, Says More Recalls Are Coming:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-06-05/gms-mary-barra-fires-15-says-more-recalls-are-coming
General Motors (GM) has fired 15 employees over its protracted recall disaster and is preparing another wave of recalls, Chief Executive Mary Barra told GM employees at GM’s technical center in Detroit this morning.

At the same time, Barra ruled out any high-level conspiracy in the 2.6 million-vehicle debacle...

I wouldn't be surprised if the initial set of recalls coming rapid fire was Mary Barra ordering fast tracking of safety complaint investigations along w/erring on the side of caution to recall in order to try to get as much bad news out there at once.

Get it all out of the way as quickly as possible so that it passes instead of having protracted slow motion train wreck spread out over a long period.

GM is now at recall #34 so far this year: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101739417" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

One could use some reverse logic. GM is probably under very great scrutiny by NHTSA and internally, probably wanting to err on the side of caution and issuing recalls that they (and other automakers) might not've considered recall class/safety issues.
 
I choose the Leaf over the ______ because
  • 99% of the trips I make are under 50mi/day
    • my daily commute is 20mi round trip
    • we have L2 charges at work
      • I only charge at work
      • As I used to spend $150/mo on gas, it's like getting $150/mo back
      • (don't tell the IRS)
    • 2-3 days per year I would have taken my old car on a trip out of state (1% of my trips).
      • We have another car available to make those trips when needed.
      • As others have pointed out, you could always rent one.
    • if I needed to regularly do >80mi/day, I would have gotten the Volt.
  • of it's simplicity of design (pure electric)
    • Not just no more gas, but also...
      • No more oil changes.
      • No exhaust system.
    • Hybrids have an ICE and a second transmission.
      • all the possible problems in a gas vehicle and an electric vehicle
    • The Volt has an ICE as a generator (but one transmission, which makes it a win over Hybrids IMHO).
      • GM has a spotty reputation in my family, and this weighed against the Volt.
      • It needs oil changes, but once as little as every 18mo.
      • It uses gas, but you can keep the tank 1/4 full if you mostly never use it.
    • the Model S shares this simplicity
      • IMHO, it is the perfect car
      • it costs more than I'd like to spend
      • if you are someone who would spend >$60K on a car, it's a no-brainer to spend a little more and get the Model S.
 
jlv said:
I choose the Leaf over the ______ because
  • 99% of the trips I make are under 50mi/day
    • my daily commute is 20mi round trip
    • we have L2 charges at work
      • I only charge at work
      • As I used to spend $150/mo on gas, it's like getting $150/mo back
      • (don't tell the IRS)
    • 2-3 days per year I would have taken my old car on a trip out of state (1% of my trips).
      • We have another car available to make those trips when needed.
      • As others have pointed out, you could always rent one.
    • if I needed to regularly do >80mi/day, I would have gotten the Volt.
  • of it's simplicity of design (pure electric)
    • Not just no more gas, but also...

      • [*]No more oil changes.
        [*]No exhaust system.
    • Hybrids have an ICE and a second transmission.
      • all the possible problems in a gas vehicle and an electric vehicle
    • The Volt has an ICE as a generator (but one transmission, which makes it a win over Hybrids IMHO).
      • GM has a spotty reputation in my family, and this weighed against the Volt.
      • It needs oil changes, but once as little as every 18mo.
      • It uses gas, but you can keep the tank 1/4 full if you mostly never use it.
    • the Model S shares this simplicity
      • IMHO, it is the perfect car
      • it costs more than I'd like to spend
      • if you are someone who would spend >$60K on a car, it's a no-brainer to spend a little more and get the Model S.

Great summary.
Pretty much ditto for me, with the most important points hilighted.

(exhaust system: The reason I needed to replace my previous car, a 2002 suzuki aerio, was because it's catalytic converter died. . . for the second time in 4 years.)
 
its a LEAF forum so you really want my answer? with child you need a back seat. in the Cmax you cannot get both backseat and storage. volt runs on gas so not an option for me. your super short commutes means you want to reduce your warmup issues.

will this be your only car? I have two. the LEAF and a gasser that I force myself to drive at least once every 2-3 weeks. I keep it around because its cheap and I do occasionally need to drive far enough where its a beneficial option. and its about as reliable as a 15 year old car with 184,000 miles can be.
 
Don't get none of the listed options. This is coming from someone who owned Volt and Leaf who had a baby then a second one and eventually moved closer to work. Ended up getting a family mover... Suv. I still prefer small efficient cars but when you have two small kids even for day trips those cars are just inconvenient.
 
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