pkulak
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Location: Portland, OR

Re: Help me choose! Leaf vs Cmax Energi vs Volt and others..

Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:33 pm

IBELEAF wrote: I take it you never went camping or traveled overnight anywhere with your kids? It's not just a stroller...

The car is fully packed for a two night trip and it wasn't even camping trip, for that I have to get cargo box. It's a stroller, a couple bags with clothes, toys, cooler.
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Wow, you travel heavy! We go on multi-day trips in the Leaf plenty. For farther, multi-week trips, we'll borrow a family member's Civic, but that has _less_ cargo area. For those trips, I don't think we ever bring a stroller though. I don't even like strollers myself; I prefer Ergo's for the little ones and walking for anyone bigger than that. And we do have to strategically put bags in the unused spaces below/between carseats. And my wife and I are both short!

But, hey, to each his own. I'd say the best predictor of if the Leaf cargo area is big enough for you is if you didn't have a Van/SUV before your Leaf. Probably not a good idea to try to downsize. And I will admit to spending a fair amount of time looking longingly at the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. :D

astricklin
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Re: Help me choose! Leaf vs Cmax Energi vs Volt and others..

Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:18 pm

There is not a single automobile in this world that is a 'need' they are all wants. Tools to make our lives better. The type of vehicle that you drive is based mostly on personal preference and then also what will fulfill your desires for the utility of the tool that you are purchasing. Yes, there are many factors that people use to justify the expense or make a decision on which tool will best assist with their daily tasks, but no matter the vehicle that you own, you could always make due with something different, you would just have to make adjustments.
I am about to have my first child and people are constantly telling me 'just wait and see you are going to need a minivan' and to them I respond 'nope'.

As far as the space, I have a new beetle and I have taken a multi day road trip with 3 adults and had enough room for the things that we wanted to take, including a tent and some other camping gear. Just because one person chooses to take 40 cubic feet worth of belongings with them on a 2 day trip doesn't mean that many others cannot take a week long trip and make due with only 20 cubic feet worth of stuff.

To the OP. No one but yourself will be able to tell you what car will work best for you. Make a list of the things that you find to be the top priority in your purchase, then weigh the strengths and weaknesses of each vehicle against those. Decide which things you are willing to sacrifice to make a trade off in another area. Figure out what items are 'must have' or 'no-go' and you may be able to chop one or more choices off your list quickly. As many have said around here before. If you take 1 road trip a year where you need more space, it will often times make financial sense to just rent a vehicle for that one trip.

IBELEAF
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Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Help me choose! Leaf vs Cmax Energi vs Volt and others..

Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:45 pm

I don't think we travel heavy, only essentials, clothes, food in a small cooler and a few toys. Didn't even bring any large items like bikes. We have 4 month old, so we have to carry a stroller with a bassinet which essentially takes entire trunk space in Leaf & Volt. I can't imagine going for multi day trips in a small car with two kids, just a bag of clothes for everyone will take entire trunk space.

Yes, people nagged me and my wife as well when we were waiting for our first child and first Leaf in 2011 that we need a minivan, I said 'never' thinking we are too far away from the next one in the future, but the future came sooner then expected. While we did manage some trips in Volt with 1 kid, with 2 it became impossible. It seems like the smaller the kids the more cargo space you require.
Currently: '12 Volt (12k) since 7/2012
Previously: '11 Leaf SL (w/ 12k miles & 16 month ownership)

Pipcecil
Posts: 810
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Location: Midlothian, TX

Re: Help me choose! Leaf vs Cmax Energi vs Volt and others..

Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:30 am

astricklin wrote:I am about to have my first child and people are constantly telling me 'just wait and see you are going to need a minivan' and to them I respond 'nope'.
This 1,000 times over. I hear this quite a bit (no kids yet, but maybe on the horizon). All I can think of is wow how much stuff do you really need? I did a little bit of work in Europe for a few months and it AMAZES me how much they can do with so little space. They pack entire families and stuff (2 kids or more) in something we would call a subcompact (or even smaller!) and travel for days.

This is my goal - not to have so much stuff. And it was never a question of money for them either. I think the exact opposite is my sister. A minivan for her two kids and her husband sometimes won't even work - she considered getting a full size van - really? And don't get me started on the house she bought. There are rooms of just stuff. No people in it, just stuff. I, personally, don't want to live like that. We bought our Volt a few years back as an upgrade for potential kids from an audi TT (yes it had a back seat...but...not really). If it won't fit, we don't need to take it, end of story. Hell my wife and I can travel in a shared suitcase (carry-on size) for a week. One suitcase. I love that we can do that.

So for trunk space, it really is how you view it. I have seen families of 4 (with small kids/toddlers/babies) go on road trips in a Fiat. Now I don't know if I could do a Fiat (but man, I would love to try), but It really just depends on your perspective.
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abasile
Posts: 1922
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am
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Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Help me choose! Leaf vs Cmax Energi vs Volt and others..

Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:20 am

Pipcecil wrote:All I can think of is wow how much stuff do you really need?
+1. Learning to travel light can be liberating. Not only does carrying extra stuff take up space, it takes more time to pack, keep organized, unpack, etc. One fear I have about eventually acquiring a Tesla Model X is that we'll end up taking too much junk with us on trips. For years now, our family's philosophy has been, if it won't fit in the Prius or the LEAF, then we probably don't need it. So far that's worked out well, and we've been on quite a few camping trips. We don't carry strollers (never worked for us anyway), big coolers/iceboxes, EZ-ups, or bikes. We do pack a family-size tent, sleeping bags, pads, blankets, a folding chair or two, a cookstove, personal luggage/clothing, food in insulating grocery bags with zippers, day backpacks, and sometimes a bundle of firewood. Everything we need.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
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IBELEAF
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Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Help me choose! Leaf vs Cmax Energi vs Volt and others..

Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:57 am

Pipcecil wrote: This 1,000 times over. I hear this quite a bit (no kids yet, but maybe on the horizon). All I can think of is wow how much stuff do you really need? I did a little bit of work in Europe for a few months and it AMAZES me how much they can do with so little space. They pack entire families and stuff (2 kids or more) in something we would call a subcompact (or even smaller!) and travel for days.
.
That true and I lived there. Do you think it's enjoyable? Not really. In comparison to US space at a premium, gas is expensive, cars are expensive that's why most people are forced to deal with it by going small on everything. If they could afford it they would go bigger like we do here in the US.

Everyone has different situation. I was just sharing my situation that small efficient cars do not work in my family with two kids and short commute. They are expensive with small utility and their efficiency will never pay off when you put 4-5k miles per year. So for now I will take space over efficiency until we see more options in a few years down the road, by that time I will need to replace my second car. Hopefully something like Outlander PHEV. If I was driving over 10k miles per year then I would most definitely kept an efficient car.
Currently: '12 Volt (12k) since 7/2012
Previously: '11 Leaf SL (w/ 12k miles & 16 month ownership)

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14101
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Leaf Number: 314199
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Re: Help me choose! Leaf vs Cmax Energi vs Volt and others..

Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:45 pm

IBELEAF wrote:I don't think we travel heavy, only essentials, clothes, food in a small cooler and a few toys. Didn't even bring any large items like bikes. We have 4 month old, so we have to carry a stroller with a bassinet which essentially takes entire trunk space in Leaf & Volt. I can't imagine going for multi day trips in a small car with two kids, just a bag of clothes for everyone will take entire trunk space.

Yes, people nagged me and my wife as well when we were waiting for our first child and first Leaf in 2011 that we need a minivan, I said 'never' thinking we are too far away from the next one in the future, but the future came sooner then expected. While we did manage some trips in Volt with 1 kid, with 2 it became impossible. It seems like the smaller the kids the more cargo space you require.
said it a long time ago that a reasonably priced "soccer mom" EV had a market. I know this next statement will go over like a Led Zeppelin with the range anxiety crowd but fact of the matter; there are more than enough people out there who drive 35 miles per day or less and a limited range EV for bombing around town (oh wait! no gas tank, no bomb!) would be perfect.

in reality, an extended range EV is the ticket but then the price gets too high but guessing that Yukon wasn't all that cheap either
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
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jlv
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Range Anxiety

Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:00 am

said it a long time ago that a reasonably priced "soccer mom" EV had a market. I know this next statement will go over like a Led Zeppelin with the range anxiety crowd but fact of the matter; there are more than enough people out there who drive 35 miles per day or less and a limited range EV for ... would be perfect.
Here's an interesting effect I've seen with our Leaf, which tends to mimc what is in this article.

My wife constantly is concerned about any trip of 30+ miles one way, in that we won't be able to get back home without going out of our way to charge. If it involves any highway driving (such as a typical trip for us into Boston or Worcester), she will be highly resistant about making it in the Leaf. Only if I really insist (and prove there is the possibility of charging) will she (reluctantly) agree. It doesn't matter to her that I've made the trip myself and returned home with 20 miles of range; she's not happy with that as a safety zone.

This evening we're making a 70 mile round trip with about 50 highway miles. Even though we would start on a full charge, she won't take the Leaf because there isn't charging where we're going. (Although, with this amount of highway, even I would be concerned about the range)

If the range of the vehicle was 100 miles more than it is today, she would never have any concerns or anxiety about such a trip, even though we'd likely return home with 120 miles of range left. The buffer to empty would be enough to make her completely comfortable. Without that buffer zone, she will always be concerned even if we never come close to using the extra 100 miles of range.

Getting over this is what I expected is needed for the "soccer mom" EV market. There has to be no concern that they'll ever get close to "empty", otherwise they just won't go for it.
LEAF '13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17, sold 11/18) 34K mi, AHr 58, SOH 87%
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Range Anxiety

Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:18 am

jlv wrote:
said it a long time ago that a reasonably priced "soccer mom" EV had a market. I know this next statement will go over like a Led Zeppelin with the range anxiety crowd but fact of the matter; there are more than enough people out there who drive 35 miles per day or less and a limited range EV for ... would be perfect.
Here's an interesting effect I've seen with our Leaf, which tends to mimc what is in this article.

My wife constantly is concerned about any trip of 30+ miles one way, in that we won't be able to get back home without going out of our way to charge. If it involves any highway driving (such as a typical trip for us into Boston or Worcester), she will be highly resistant about making it in the Leaf. Only if I really insist (and prove there is the possibility of charging) will she (reluctantly) agree. It doesn't matter to her that I've made the trip myself and returned home with 20 miles of range; she's not happy with that as a safety zone.

This evening we're making a 70 mile round trip with about 50 highway miles. Even though we would start on a full charge, she won't take the Leaf because there isn't charging where we're going. (Although, with this amount of highway, even I would be concerned about the range)

If the range of the vehicle was 100 miles more than it is today, she would never have any concerns or anxiety about such a trip, even though we'd likely return home with 120 miles of range left. The buffer to empty would be enough to make her completely comfortable. Without that buffer zone, she will always be concerned even if we never come close to using the extra 100 miles of range.

Getting over this is what I expected is needed for the "soccer mom" EV market. There has to be no concern that they'll ever get close to "empty", otherwise they just won't go for it.

my SO had the same concerns with the 2011 LEAF and a 58 mile commute. I "cured" her by simply getting up earlier than her and taking the Prius!

well, it was "my" car after all and not saying this would work well in your case. She wasn't exactly accepting of my idea but she did make it with no problems and although she won't admit it, she did have fun showing off the car to her co-workers.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
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tangfj
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:53 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Jun 2014
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Help me choose! Leaf vs Cmax Energi vs Volt and others..

Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:30 pm

Hey guys, I went to the Nissan dealer today (autobarn evanston) and test drove a 2014 Leaf SL. Next week I'll be test driving the C-Max Energi but I really doubt it'd be in contention given the smaller cargo space and shorter electric range...

Anyway, here is the specific car I was looking at... I was wondering what you guys think of the deal I was offered?

[*]2014 Leaf SL
[*]Grey with black leather interior
[*]Premium package with around view monitor
[*]Splash guards
[*]Floor mats & Cargo area mat W/Premium Package

I was offered invoice price at $35,050 minus $3,500 bonus cash and 0% interest for 72 months, so essentially $31,550. I was pushing to see if I could get more discounts but didn't get that far since they were closing... I plan on going in next weekend so they could value my trade-in, which is a 2008 BMW 135i with pretty low miles.

What do you guys think? Do you think I could get a better deal or do you know which available options I should push for for free?
2014 Gun Metallic Gray SL w/ Premium Package

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