JasonA
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Re: Official Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan thread

Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:11 am

GRA wrote: As has been covered extensively in the Hydrogen/fuel cell thread, Toyota alone is subsidizing 18 stations in California which will open before this car becomes available (the state is subsidizing up to 100 over the next few years, but IIRR will have 50-something by next October). The FCV manufacturers all plan to only sell/lease cars to people within 6 minutes of a fueling station, making sure the vehicle will be a good fit.
Don't know if YOU know this, but Toyota is partnering with Airgas /Air Liquide to provide fueling stations right now. Biggest problem... they are only able to fill at most locations 20-40 cars per day!

And Airgar (I get my welding tanks filled there) are not nec in the most convenient locations for someone driving and then wanting to get off the hwy and go fill real quick..
And these hydrogen stops aren’t exactly as convenient as your typical gas station. Air Liquide, the company responsible for the ones proposed for the northeast, says a typical station will handle just 40 cars per day. Some commenters at Green Car Reports note that the math on these equations is terrible. First, the estimated cost is upwards of $2 million each. That means through 2017, about $45,000 per vehicle will be spent on fueling infrastructure alone. For the same cost, nearly 100,000 240-volt chargers could be installed, supporting perhaps twice that many EVs for daytime charging in parking lots. In other words, the infrastructure spend could support nearly 60 times as many battery-powered vehicles and those wouldn’t require any fueling stops at all.
And your comment about being 6min away?? :lol: I have a neighbor 1 street down with a new Toyota FCHV with stickers planted all over it saying 70+MPGe "hydrogen is the future" ,etc...

Closest station to us....
151 W Verdugo Ave
Burbank, CA 91502
Fuel:Hydrogen
Distance:9.4 mi
Time: 29min (traffic)

Sorry.. but just in case your High School (or Jr.High) science classes may have left you along time ago, do a little google searching about how Hydrogen burns... how it's invisible.. and pretty f'ing HOT!

The only way to detect a fire is by seeing a heat wave(distortion), a thermal imager, or a "CHEMICAL" introduced into the Hydrogen :lol:

Google it up and learn abit.. it's not pretty.. The only reason the Hindenburg had flames was all the burning humans, metals, alloys, furniture, etc,etc,etc..

P.S. I suggest you or anybody else read these docs.. Alot from Air Liquide and others.. One PDF is real intersting :lol: (imagine being in an underground parking garage with a FCHV leaking).. and a fire :shock:
http://www.hyresponse.eu/workshop.php

http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/firstresponders.html
http://h2bestpractices.org/incident_pro ... ponder.asp
2012 10kw Dual LQ cooled Brusa powered Leaf "Astro"
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GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Official Toyota Fuel Cell Sedan thread

Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:18 pm

JasonA wrote:
GRA wrote: As has been covered extensively in the Hydrogen/fuel cell thread, Toyota alone is subsidizing 18 stations in California which will open before this car becomes available (the state is subsidizing up to 100 over the next few years, but IIRR will have 50-something by next October). The FCV manufacturers all plan to only sell/lease cars to people within 6 minutes of a fueling station, making sure the vehicle will be a good fit.
Don't know if YOU know this, but Toyota is partnering with Airgas /Air Liquide to provide fueling stations right now. Biggest problem... they are only able to fill at most locations 20-40 cars per day!

And Airgar (I get my welding tanks filled there) are not nec in the most convenient locations for someone driving and then wanting to get off the hwy and go fill real quick..
And these hydrogen stops aren’t exactly as convenient as your typical gas station. Air Liquide, the company responsible for the ones proposed for the northeast, says a typical station will handle just 40 cars per day. Some commenters at Green Car Reports note that the math on these equations is terrible. First, the estimated cost is upwards of $2 million each. That means through 2017, about $45,000 per vehicle will be spent on fueling infrastructure alone. For the same cost, nearly 100,000 240-volt chargers could be installed, supporting perhaps twice that many EVs for daytime charging in parking lots. In other words, the infrastructure spend could support nearly 60 times as many battery-powered vehicles and those wouldn’t require any fueling stops at all.
And your comment about being 6min away?? :lol: I have a neighbor 1 street down with a new Toyota FCHV with stickers planted all over it saying 70+MPGe "hydrogen is the future" ,etc...

Closest station to us....
151 W Verdugo Ave
Burbank, CA 91502
Fuel:Hydrogen
Distance:9.4 mi
Time: 29min (traffic)

Sorry.. but just in case your High School (or Jr.High) science classes may have left you along time ago, do a little google searching about how Hydrogen burns... how it's invisible.. and pretty f'ing HOT!

The only way to detect a fire is by seeing a heat wave(distortion), a thermal imager, or a "CHEMICAL" introduced into the Hydrogen :lol:

Google it up and learn abit.. it's not pretty.. The only reason the Hindenburg had flames was all the burning humans, metals, alloys, furniture, etc,etc,etc..

P.S. I suggest you or anybody else read these docs.. Alot from Air Liquide and others.. One PDF is real intersting :lol: (imagine being in an underground parking garage with a FCHV leaking).. and a fire :shock:
http://www.hyresponse.eu/workshop.php

http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/firstresponders.html
http://h2bestpractices.org/incident_pro ... ponder.asp
Jason, everything in your post has been discussed extensively by me and others in the H2/fuel cell thread over the past year or so, and at the moment I lack the energy to do it yet again. Feel free to read that thread for answers/agreement/rebuttals to your points.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:21 am

Green Car Reports: How Much Money Does The 2016 Toyota Lose? A Lot, Perhaps
Green Car Reports wrote:As originally reported by Autoblog Green, Cox said Toyota is "probably taking a hit of 50,000 to 100,000 euros per unit" on each 2016 Mirai it sells.

That would be $62,000 to $124,000 each, after its U.S. purchase price of $57,500 (before any Federal or state incentives).
:shock: Around US$150,000 is even more than I had imagined. I guess this explains why Toyota is not spending a dime to build a mass-production line for this technology. Better to feign commitment to get bureaucrats the world over to fork over wheelbarrow-loads of taxpayer cash for these vehicles and the ridiculously-expensive infrastructure needed to enable them.

All in an effort by Toyota to focus their manufacturing only on the most profitable part of their business: non-hybrid ICEs. The market needs to vote with their wallets to show Toyota that we want truly green solutions, not more stalling tactics.
RegGuheert
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TonyWilliams
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:27 am

The going rate for one CARB-ZEV accredit is $4000, so a hydrogen "300 mile" car at nine credits per car is $36,000.

They get $20,000 from the Japanese government, per car sold there. I don't honestly know if hydrogen will be cheaper than paying Tesla $40,000 per RAV4 EV, but I suspect it is in the long run.

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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:49 am

RegGuheert wrote:The market needs to vote with their wallets to show Toyota that we want truly green solutions, not more stalling tactics.
This is the only variable remaining. The cars will come. The stations will be built. But will the initial 3000 be sold by 12/17? Will fleet managers be able to justify a $60k car? Are there enough early adopters? At that price point, I'd get a nice used Tesla S85.
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:59 am

Could be a silver lining too. Advent of the Mirai could speed up the deployment of those 150-200 mile BEVs?
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new
@ 36 months, 34k, 270 GID, 57.49 Ahr

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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:45 am

The name says it all here. Japanese has several words that talk about the future. My Son's middle name is Shourai which generally means "near future" Mirai generally means "distant future" so even Toyota recognizes that FCVs are not yet ready but they continue to push the agenda anyway and there reason why is in bold below.

On the question of the speed of battery innovation; up until the re-emergence of EVs, there was little reason to develop large format batteries. In fact, if you really examine the industry, you will notice the big push was to reduce the power needs of the devices in question, not creating more powerful batteries.

So, yes there was some work increasing battery power, but it relatively small. EVs have changed that. So what progress we made in 15 years will be matched in a fraction of that time. We will actually see a slightly modified "Moore's Law" for at least a few product cycles so expect batteries to be at a level that would cover over 99% of all travel needs including day trips within 7-10 years. It is pretty certain that this only needs to be about 300-400 miles.

Add to this an effective fast charging network (very few will need or even want the desire to drive more than 5 hours without stopping at least occasionally)

So FCV's only real hope is developing a super cheap way of creating hydrogen. Our only real hope is removing all public subsidies for the fuel and technology.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
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GRA
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:00 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Green Car Reports: How Much Money Does The 2016 Toyota Lose? A Lot, Perhaps
Green Car Reports wrote:As originally reported by Autoblog Green, Cox said Toyota is "probably taking a hit of 50,000 to 100,000 euros per unit" on each 2016 Mirai it sells.

That would be $62,000 to $124,000 each, after its U.S. purchase price of $57,500 (before any Federal or state incentives).
:shock: Around US$150,000 is even more than I had imagined. I guess this explains why Toyota is not spending a dime to build a mass-production line for this technology. Better to feign commitment to get bureaucrats the world over to fork over wheelbarrow-loads of taxpayer cash for these vehicles and the ridiculously-expensive infrastructure needed to enable them.

All in an effort by Toyota to focus their manufacturing only on the most profitable part of their business: non-hybrid ICEs. The market needs to vote with their wallets to show Toyota that we want truly green solutions, not more stalling tactics.
Aren't you putting an awful lot of stock in an estimate by someone who has no connection to Toyota? I have no doubt that Toyota is subsidizing these cars and will be for years, but as to how much, nobody but they know. I saw this article but didn't bother to provide a link to this report because it fails to pass any standard of reliability I recognize, it's pure speculation by one person with absolutely no information to base it on.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TomT
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:17 pm

I saw a number of them at the Toyota exhibit at CES. They are even uglier in person (the blue looks the best IMO)... And if you loved the center touch screen dash on the Gen 1 Volt, you will love this car: It is mostly shinny black plastic with the same type of "buttons." My wife commented that the interior looked "cheap and tacky..."
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
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cwerdna
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Re: Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:08 pm

TomT wrote:I saw a number of them at the Toyota exhibit at CES. They are even uglier in person (the blue looks the best IMO)... And if you loved the center touch screen dash on the Gen 1 Volt, you will love this car: It is mostly shinny black plastic with the same type of "buttons." My wife commented that the interior looked "cheap and tacky..."
Darn! I didn't get to at least meet you at CES. I was able to be present on the show floor for ~3.5 days.

I was glad they let us sit inside and poke around at the Mirais at CES. Yeah, they went w/capacitive buttons like on the Volt. Toyota has dabbled w/that on the Avalon and Rav4 EV, if not other vehicles.

Saw the CHAdeMO outlet in the trunk. Was able to open the hood and took a look, as well.

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