GRA
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:17 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
GRA wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote: That is because you live int he Bay Area. A screen shade on the car works and the ability to have some warmth in the cold is a bonus without using the heat. Not such an issue here and can be mitigated. I think the roof is more an asset.
The issue isn't whether or not a shade works, it's whether or not I want to have to pay for and use one to provide shade/insulation from sun that is let into the car by an expensive and heavy glass roof that I don't want or need. If someone wants the roof it's their money, and more power to them. I don't, and the car would be less expensive without it.
Believe me it's not needed. However, even with a steel roof I don't see you buying a Tesla for other reasons so it's a bit moot. They don't make custom cars and those that don't own one seem to have many issues with them for one reason or another but many of those perceptions are wrong. Both you and LorenFb will dwell on Tesla and other things for eternity. Loren's reasons change weekly with the latest that the 3 looks like a Chevy Malibu. Straws----Grasping.
I agree that I'm unlikely to buy a Tesla, because so many of Tesla's priorities don't match mine. But that's okay, because Tesla has caused all of the other car companies, including those whose priorities are a better match to mine, to also design and introduce BEVs, and I fully expect one of them to come out with a vehicle that would suit me within a few years.

As an example of differing priorities, take rear hatch slope. Tesla prioritizes aerodynamics over cargo volume/height in their CUV designs, and I prioritize it the other way. I want a rear hatch sloped at 60 deg. or more (90 being vertical), both for ease of loading, volume, and so whatever gear in back (and me) isn't exposed to the sun. It also keeps the overall length down, which is valuable to me on some of the one-lane dirt access roads I drive (shorter length, wheelbase and overhangs makes doing a u-turn easier if the road is blocked - having to back 1/2 mile or more to the first place you can turn around isn't something you want to do if it can be avoided.

This is the model car I currently own: https://goo.gl/images/jj4Q8E Not a lot of effort devoted to 'style' and aero takes a back seat, but max utility in the smallest possible size, with excellent sightlines, headroom, cargo area etc. As there are plenty of companies building CUVs with the roofline I prefer, I'll be good to go. Most of my other priorities also skew heavily towards the utilitarian; after all, that's why I want a CUV in the first place (but would prefer a wagon). So far, the most utilitarian Tesla has been the Model S with the metal roof, but it's just too big and expensive for me.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:44 pm

DanCar wrote:
GRA wrote:... an expensive and heavy glass roof that I don't want or need. If someone wants the roof it's their money, and more power to them. I don't, and the car would be less expensive without it.
Elon says the glass roof makes the car cheaper to manufacturer. The glass roof allows easier access to the cabin for the robots and the glass roof is added after interior work is done. Tesla manufacturers the glass by themselves so that cuts down costs. Glass raw materials are cheap, basically sand that you can scoop off the earth.
Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:47 pm

GRA wrote:
DanCar wrote:
GRA wrote:... an expensive and heavy glass roof that I don't want or need. If someone wants the roof it's their money, and more power to them. I don't, and the car would be less expensive without it.
Elon says the glass roof makes the car cheaper to manufacturer. The glass roof allows easier access to the cabin for the robots and the glass roof is added after interior work is done. Tesla manufacturers the glass by themselves so that cuts down costs. Glass raw materials are cheap, basically sand that you can scoop off the earth.
Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.
I don't think actual buyers share your concerns.

cwerdna
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:14 am

GRA wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote:
GRA wrote:...I see that the Model Y is going to have one as well, which would eliminate it for me, if everything on the touchscreen, the length, the price of the LR AWD and the slope of the rear hatch hadn't already done that.
Oh come now, Guy. No EV will EVER have the right features to satisfy you! Doesn't seem to match your signature: "The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'" — you want perfection in every possible detail, as you define them, and nothing else will do. In the unlikely event that one came close, you would morph your requirements to eliminate it. If the Forester suits you better, that's fine. Others of us "make do" with EVs and have lots of fun with them; I think that you are missing out!
No, I want an EV that meets my major requirements: one that is "good enough" doesn't have to be perfect. At the moment, no EV meets them, and I am unwilling to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a vehicle that forces me to "make do," given how long I keep a car and that I expect my next car purchase to be my last, giving me a grand total of five in my lifetime. I expect by the time my next car reaches the end of its useful life, rather than buying another I will instead use intermodal MaaS AVs, allowing me to forsake car ownership (given that my driving skills will likely have started to deteriorate by that time due to age, that's a good thing for everyone). I have hopes that BEVs will meet my major requirements in a few years. If the Kia Niro EV had 300+ miles of range, could charge to 80% in 1/2 hour or less, and was AWD, it would probably (have to check that I can lie down stretched out in the back, one of my firm requirements for any car) be "good enough".
GRA, I (and others here on MNL including someone who I spoke to personally in the past 6 months or so) am still puzzled by why you spend so much time here on MNL and yet have been unwilling to buy or lease any EV or PHEV

You don't need to spend tens of thousands of dollars. I spent just a bit above that including tax and license ($9,325 + tax and license) on my used '13 Leaf that I still drive today (usually about 3 days/week) but I'm trying to sell. Was my primary car from end of July 2015 until end of Jan 2019. Maybe you'd like to buy it? ;)

I'd wanted an EV for a long time and had wanted a Leaf. I had to delay purchase/lease for a # of reasons until I finally leased my 1st one in July 2013.

I agree w/dgp.

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SanCarlosJeff
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:52 am

GRA wrote: Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.
I'm fairly certain there are other examples of companies charging what the market will bear rather than basing it solely on costs of goods.
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GRA
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:11 pm

cwerdna wrote: GRA, I (and others here on MNL including someone who I spoke to personally in the past 6 months or so) am still puzzled by why you spend so much time here on MNL and yet have been unwilling to buy or lease any EV or PHEV

You don't need to spend tens of thousands of dollars. I spent just a bit above that including tax and license ($9,325 + tax and license) on my used '13 Leaf that I still drive today (usually about 3 days/week) but I'm trying to sell. Was my primary car from end of July 2015 until end of Jan 2019. Maybe you'd like to buy it? ;)

I'd wanted an EV for a long time and had wanted a Leaf. I had to delay purchase/lease for a # of reasons until I finally leased my 1st one in July 2013.

I agree w/dgp.
I've explained many times my reasons why I remain interested but unwilling to buy at this time. Inexpensive BEVs are currently only suited for local/intraregional use. I have no need of a car for local use/commuting, and only occasional need for intra-regional use, preferring to use my feet, bike and rapid transit, all of which are zero emissions (depending on what I eat) as well as more energy efficient than using a 3,000+ lb. vehicle to haul myself around, not to mention the positive health impact for me of engaging in active transportation*.

My sole need for a car is for longer range trips, and it is in that area that current BEVs require spending tens of thousands of dollars, and even then the infrastructure is often sparse to non-existent in the places I wish to travel to, far off the interstates and often the U.S. and state highways as well. Once that changes, I'm good to go. Even better would be the ability to rent a long-range BEV as needed, in which case I could give up car ownership (my ultimate goal) now.

As for not buying a PHEV, I could, but that provides little advantage for me given my typical trip profile; I've run the numbers, and on my typical trip a PHEV would burn more gas than a straight HEV due to the extra weight being carried around (not to mention the often decreased cargo space, which is a major issue for me). It doesn't make sense to get one unless my current car were to die, and I have no desire to exchange one ICE for another (albeit more efficient) one unless I have to.

Failing that, I prefer to wait until I can buy a ZEV to do the transition all at once, and continue to limit my ICE driving in the meantime. That makes by far the most economic and practical sense to me, and doesn't impose the energy and resource impact of making another car - I first want to limit the number of cars built, and only then use the most efficient one. Others may make different calcs, but as dgpcolorado wrote a long time ago, he didn't get a BEV because it made the most economic or practical sense, it was because he wanted one and was willing to put up with the limitations. I am not so inclined - until any car can meet my practical needs it has no value to me, and I'm not interested in buying one to 'make a statement' - I'll leave that to others. In the meantime, I've got my landlord to agree to install a charging circuit if/when Ido get a PEV, and probably even to install PV to serve both the main house and my unit, although that's more tenuous. I'm doing the legwork on that for him, getting quotes and checking specs.



*Active Transportation: https://www.transportation.gov/mission/ ... sportation
Last edited by GRA on Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:20 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
GRA wrote:
DanCar wrote: Elon says the glass roof makes the car cheaper to manufacturer. The glass roof allows easier access to the cabin for the robots and the glass roof is added after interior work is done. Tesla manufacturers the glass by themselves so that cuts down costs. Glass raw materials are cheap, basically sand that you can scoop off the earth.
Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.
I don't think actual buyers share your concerns.
Presumably not, or they wouldn't buy. Actual buyers of Ferraris probably don't share my concerns either. So?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:22 pm

SanCarlosJeff wrote:
GRA wrote: Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.
I'm fairly certain there are other examples of companies charging what the market will bear rather than basing it solely on costs of goods.
Of course. This is one potential customer who won't bear it, but others are free to do so if they choose.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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dgpcolorado
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:34 am

GRA wrote:Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.
Always? It is standard on the Model 3, all models, and has been standard on the Model S for several years. They don't charge extra for it; instead they simplified manufacturing and made it standard across the line.

The glass roof was originally going to be only available on the higher trim levels of the Model 3 but it was very easy to predict that when the SR was released it also would have the glass roof. As, indeed, it does.
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GRA
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:07 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
GRA wrote:Yet oddly enough, the glass roof has always been part of an extra cost package, so what you're saying is that Tesla is charging its customers more for a less expensive product. If accurate (I've come to place a considerable discount on Elon's claims unless backed up by independent evidence), where did you want me to bend over, Tesla.
Always? It is standard on the Model 3, all models, and has been standard on the Model S for several years. They don't charge extra for it; instead they simplified manufacturing and made it standard across the line.

The glass roof was originally going to be only available on the higher trim levels of the Model 3 but it was very easy to predict that when the SR was released it also would have the glass roof. As, indeed, it does.
It has been made standard on the M3 now, but it was originally part of the PuP. As you are well aware, the glass roof was an extra cost option on the Model S (forget on the Model X), and was made standard when they discontinued the smaller battery cars and raised the prices, to differentiate the Model S from the top of the line Model 3.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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