Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:28 pm

GRA wrote:
GRA wrote:
Well, my time got extended for 30 minutes (twice), so thought I'd add this link via ABG:
Tesla says single battery module caused car fire in Shanghai
No systemic problem, automaker says, though it pushes out a software update
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/06/28/tes ... -shanghai/
. . . The company said in a statement posted on its Weibo social media account that a joint investigation team had analyzed the battery, software, manufacturing data and vehicle history.

Initial results show that this fire, which was captured on video, was caused by a single battery module fault located at the front of the vehicle, Tesla said.

The company has revised the charge and thermal management settings on Model S and Model X vehicles via an over-the-air (OTA) software update, to help further protect the battery and improve battery longevity, the statement said.
And that's all for me today.
For the Tesla novices, a model S/X battery module is a brick unit composed of over 400+ cells. There are plenty of teardown videos showing that every battery pack is made from 12 to 16 of these modules.

Having a module fail doesn't tell us anything about whether having the cell protection circuitries would've done anything to help. Much like how the iPhones, Samsung Galaxy phones, and the Boeing 787's all had cell overcharge/discharge circuits in place, yet didn't prevent them from going into thermal runaway.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
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lorenfb
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:10 am

GRA wrote:
The company has revised the charge and thermal management settings on Model S and Model X vehicles via an over-the-air (OTA) software update, to help further protect the battery and improve battery longevity, the statement said.
That would potentially provide more of an effective preventative approach than future circuitry modifications, given the problem of thermal runaway.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

GRA
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:24 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote: For the Tesla novices, a model S/X battery module is a brick unit composed of over 400+ cells. There are plenty of teardown videos showing that every battery pack is made from 12 to 16 of these modules.

Having a module fail doesn't tell us anything about whether having the cell protection circuitries would've done anything to help. Much like how the iPhones, Samsung Galaxy phones, and the Boeing 787's all had cell overcharge/discharge circuits in place, yet didn't prevent them from going into thermal runaway.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but ISTR that those all involved LiCoO2 cells. I'm pretty certain the battery cargo fire that caused the crash of UPS Flight 6 involved LiCoO2 batteries, and led to restrictions on all Li-Ion battery shipments by air, e.g.
2019 Lithium Battery Guidance
Document, Revision 1
Transport of Lithium Metal and
Lithium Ion Batteries
https://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/dgr ... elines.pdf
DOT Issues New Rule for Air Transport of Lithium Batteries
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail ... 32a12ee4e7

Battery University https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/art ... ithium_ion says of both LiCoO2 (Roadster) and LiNCA (Model S et. seq.):
Thermal runaway 150°C (302°F) typical, High charge [Full charge for LiCoO2] promotes thermal runaway
LiNMC, which everyone else seems to be using now except maybe some Chinese companies, is safer:
Thermal runaway 210°C (410°F) typical. High charge promotes thermal runaway
The LEAF originally used LiMn2O4, which is safer yet:
Thermal runaway 250°C (482°F) typical. High charge promotes thermal runaway
Finally, LiFePO4, which AFAIA no one except maybe some Chinese companies is using now (the MY 2013 Spark had them), is the safest of all (except LTO used only in the Fit EV), albeit having the lowest specific energy (NCA is the highest):
Thermal runaway 270°C (518°F) Very safe battery even if fully charged
So, Tesla presumably decided to use the batteries with the highest specific energy and energy density, but also the highest chance of thermal runaway, because they needed to set themselves apart from the rest of the manufacturers, as BEVs are their whole business. The mainstream car manufacturers had no need to take such risks, because their profits aren't tied to BEVs which are a small niche for them, and they have no desire to risk liability for the company by accepting the higher chance of thermal runaway. Both of those decisions make sense.
Last edited by GRA on Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:02 pm

GRA wrote:
The company has revised the charge and thermal management settings on Model S and Model X vehicles via an over-the-air (OTA) software update, to help further protect the battery and improve battery longevity, the statement said.
Ah yes, they say they know the answer, but still no discussion about what the answer was, or what "charge and thermal management settings" were changed.
WetEV
#49
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2014 Leaf SL Red
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GRA
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:44 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:
The company has revised the charge and thermal management settings on Model S and Model X vehicles via an over-the-air (OTA) software update, to help further protect the battery and improve battery longevity, the statement said.
Ah yes, they say they know the answer, but still no discussion about what the answer was, or what "charge and thermal management settings" were changed.
Yup. I expect we'll have to wait for owners to post on TMC to find out what effect the changes have. Presumably it will slow charging and/or up cooling, and at least the first will make owners unhappy.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:24 pm

GRA wrote:Yup. I expect we'll have to wait for owners to post on TMC to find out what effect the changes have. Presumably it will slow charging and/or up cooling, and at least the first will make owners unhappy.
Or turn down battery cooling to reduce condensation.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

GerryAZ
Gold Member
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:35 pm

Discussion centers on thermal runaway while charging, but the Model S fire in Shanghai occurred while parked (car not on and not plugged in). I hope we learn the true cause and get some explanation of how changing the charging and cooling parameters will prevent similar fires in the future.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL+ purchased 8/10/2019

Valdemar
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:43 pm

On a different subject, I drove from Los Angeles to Bay Area on I-5 last week, saw a bunch of trucks hauling M3s in the other direction, I didn't count but it felt there were at least 20 I saw.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
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SageBrush
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:03 am

Latest experience of a Tesla Model 3 LR charging at a V3 Supercharger:
24 kWh in the first ~ 7 minutes, average ~ 200 kW
37 kWh in 12 minutes, average 185 kW

I had estimated in earlier posts that a person could jump from Supercharger to Supercharger and average 175 kW charging. Glad to see that the Supercharger agrees with me.

https://youtu.be/PLbV0-VPwoU
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

lorenfb
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Re: Official Tesla Model 3 thread

Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:55 am

SageBrush wrote:Latest experience of a Tesla Model 3 LR charging at a V3 Supercharger:
24 kWh in the first ~ 7 minutes, average ~ 200 kW
37 kWh in 12 minutes, average 185 kW

I had estimated in earlier posts that a person could jump from Supercharger to Supercharger and average 175 kW charging. Glad to see that the Supercharger agrees with me.

https://youtu.be/PLbV0-VPwoU
Yes, the tech is there, i.e. very impressive! Thanks
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

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