GetOffYourGas
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Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:40 am

GRA wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:35 pm
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:56 pm
With 66 you should be able to exceed 300 freeway miles at 55-60 mph.

Exciting times
Assuming anyone has the patience to do so. Bjorn Nyland drove a 64 kWh Niro over 300 miles at 90 km/h (56 mph), but out here in the west the max. rural freeway speed limits are 70 (CA, OR), 75 (WA, AZ, NM, CO, ND, NE, KS, AR, LA) or 80 (NV, ID, MT, UT, WY, SD, OK, TX), and people usually drive around 5 mph over the limit. More range is definitely a good thing, but we've still got a ways to go before BEVs can match the range of a typical ICE at realistic speeds (never mind a comparable price), and in order to come close to matching ICE refueling times we'd need charge rates of 1200kW or more.
All technically true. Fortunately we don't need to match ICE for range or charging speed to gain significantly more market share. I suspect that 250 EPA miles and charging to 80% in 30 minutes would easily convince 10-20% (or more!) of the market to switch. I would be thrilled to see 20% market share within a few more years.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

danrjones
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
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Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:21 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:40 am
GRA wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:35 pm
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:56 pm
With 66 you should be able to exceed 300 freeway miles at 55-60 mph.

Exciting times
Assuming anyone has the patience to do so. Bjorn Nyland drove a 64 kWh Niro over 300 miles at 90 km/h (56 mph), but out here in the west the max. rural freeway speed limits are 70 (CA, OR), 75 (WA, AZ, NM, CO, ND, NE, KS, AR, LA) or 80 (NV, ID, MT, UT, WY, SD, OK, TX), and people usually drive around 5 mph over the limit. More range is definitely a good thing, but we've still got a ways to go before BEVs can match the range of a typical ICE at realistic speeds (never mind a comparable price), and in order to come close to matching ICE refueling times we'd need charge rates of 1200kW or more.
All technically true. Fortunately we don't need to match ICE for range or charging speed to gain significantly more market share. I suspect that 250 EPA miles and charging to 80% in 30 minutes would easily convince 10-20% (or more!) of the market to switch. I would be thrilled to see 20% market share within a few more years.
I would think as the market shares grow rapidly in Europe and Asia, that will make it cheaper here as well? some of the market share predictions I have seen for Europe are amazing.

The downside to rapidly evolving technology is that your becomes outdated and depreciates rapidly. In 2 years I figure I will be able get a similar vehicle with faster charging and more range. Even the leaf 2 or 3 years from now may be 200 miles for base model, or a lot cheaper, or both. I love my current one for what it is, but being able to actually replace one of our two ICE's would be even better. My truck maybe? Waiting to see truck EVs hitting the street. When will a 400 mile EV with 20 minute fast charging at affordable prices hit the street? I don't think its a question of "if" but "when". YMMV
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

Titanium48
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Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:58 pm

Price parity with ICEs will shift the problem to charging infrastructure. Even 20 minutes is 10x longer than filling a gas tank, and more often than not I am waiting for a gas pump at least once when I go on a road trip. Will the town that now has 15 or 20 gas pumps near the highway eventually have over a hundred 100+ kW DCFC? If not, people who make long distance trips will be replacing their ICE pickups and SUVs with PHEVs, not BEVs, even if the price is the same or the PHEV costs a bit more.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:54 pm

Even 20 minutes is 10x longer than filling a gas tank,

Maybe if the gas tank is only low by two gallons. It really takes about 4X as long, but why use actual data when hyperbole is such fun?
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danrjones
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:44 pm

Even if it IS longer... I did a road trip a few months ago. Every 300 miles or less in my truck we would stop, get gas (about 8 minutes maybe?), get back in, pull over to a parking spot, go to the bathroom, get a drink, etc

Realistically each stop was 15 or 20 minutes.

Maybe EV's will bring back the convenience in convenience stores? If each parking spot was a charger, you would plug in, go use the bathroom, get a snack or drink, come back, and it might be just about done.

Of course I would want an EV truck at some point, and then when you go to tow, the range would plummet, but maybe the trailer of the future would also carry a supply of batteries instead of a generator. And the truck could use both sets of batteries while towing, putting your tow range back to the range of the truck without the trailer. If every 711 and every gas station had a parking lot full of fast chargers, wouldn't that be enough?
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:18 pm

danrjones wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:44 pm
Even if it IS longer... I did a road trip a few months ago. Every 300 miles or less in my truck we would stop, get gas (about 8 minutes maybe?), get back in, pull over to a parking spot, go to the bathroom, get a drink, etc

Realistically each stop was 15 or 20 minutes.

Maybe EV's will bring back the convenience in convenience stores? If each parking spot was a charger, you would plug in, go use the bathroom, get a snack or drink, come back, and it might be just about done.

Of course I would want an EV truck at some point, and then when you go to tow, the range would plummet, but maybe the trailer of the future would also carry a supply of batteries instead of a generator. And the truck could use both sets of batteries while towing, putting your tow range back to the range of the truck without the trailer. If every 711 and every gas station had a parking lot full of fast chargers, wouldn't that be enough?
Maybe the area I live in is just different but every time I stop to charge, I plug in and leave. Leave a pee (never could figure why people say "take a leak?") grab some more pee ammo, some poop ammo about every 2 or 3 stops. Most of the time when I have done all that, there is only a few minutes left to charge. This kinda makes it even with a gas stop since you can't really do anything else when getting gas other than getting gas.

But the most desired thing is simply getting out and stretching my legs a bit. I guess I'm old but I have slowly begun to realize I much prefer traveling this way. Now I will admit with an EV, I plan for more travel time. At this point, I can't say that is such a bad thing considering the huge upside.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 25,185 miles SOH 92.23%
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GRA
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:20 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:54 pm
Even 20 minutes is 10x longer than filling a gas tank,

Maybe if the gas tank is only low by two gallons. It really takes about 4X as long, but why use actual data when hyperbole is such fun?
It's not hyperbole. Retail gas pumps are limited by regulation to a max. flow rate of 10 gpm. If the filters are dirty maybe you only get 5 gpm. At 25 mpg, which is what the new car fleet has been averaging +-1 mpg for the past several years, that's 125-250 miles of range per minute. A 53 mpg Hwy Prius can add up to 530 miles/min, and unlike batteries, the rate is constant unless you top off.

Which is why I cited 1200kW as the charge rate needed to get us into the same ballpark as an ICE - that's 20 kWh or 60 to 80 miles/min, so 5 minutes would give you 300 (@ 3 m/kWh) to 400 (@ 4/kWh) miles of range, assuming no charge taper. It still falls a bit short of liquid or gaseous fuel replenishment rates, but for most people it's probably good enough on trips, as they're maybe spending a few minutes using the can/cleaning the windows/buying something to eat or drink.

That's what will be needed to make sense of putting QCs at gas stations with limited parking and where high throughput is required, but a 20 minute charge that could replenish the same 300-400 mile (real world) range would mean that putting them at fast food places would make sense. That's 300kW, and we're getting close to that initial rate now but nowhere near that as an average rate, and we still don't have the necessary real-world range.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:25 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:40 am
GRA wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:35 pm
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:56 pm
With 66 you should be able to exceed 300 freeway miles at 55-60 mph.

Exciting times
Assuming anyone has the patience to do so. Bjorn Nyland drove a 64 kWh Niro over 300 miles at 90 km/h (56 mph), but out here in the west the max. rural freeway speed limits are 70 (CA, OR), 75 (WA, AZ, NM, CO, ND, NE, KS, AR, LA) or 80 (NV, ID, MT, UT, WY, SD, OK, TX), and people usually drive around 5 mph over the limit. More range is definitely a good thing, but we've still got a ways to go before BEVs can match the range of a typical ICE at realistic speeds (never mind a comparable price), and in order to come close to matching ICE refueling times we'd need charge rates of 1200kW or more.
All technically true. Fortunately we don't need to match ICE for range or charging speed to gain significantly more market share. I suspect that 250 EPA miles and charging to 80% in 30 minutes would easily convince 10-20% (or more!) of the market to switch. I would be thrilled to see 20% market share within a few more years.
Only if the price is right - see viewtopic.php?f=7&t=30161&p=565734#p565734
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:43 am

GRA wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:25 pm
GetOffYourGas wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:40 am
GRA wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:35 pm

Assuming anyone has the patience to do so. Bjorn Nyland drove a 64 kWh Niro over 300 miles at 90 km/h (56 mph), but out here in the west the max. rural freeway speed limits are 70 (CA, OR), 75 (WA, AZ, NM, CO, ND, NE, KS, AR, LA) or 80 (NV, ID, MT, UT, WY, SD, OK, TX), and people usually drive around 5 mph over the limit. More range is definitely a good thing, but we've still got a ways to go before BEVs can match the range of a typical ICE at realistic speeds (never mind a comparable price), and in order to come close to matching ICE refueling times we'd need charge rates of 1200kW or more.
All technically true. Fortunately we don't need to match ICE for range or charging speed to gain significantly more market share. I suspect that 250 EPA miles and charging to 80% in 30 minutes would easily convince 10-20% (or more!) of the market to switch. I would be thrilled to see 20% market share within a few more years.
Only if the price is right - see viewtopic.php?f=7&t=30161&p=565734#p565734
Yes, I guess I had implied that. You are 100% correct - the specs I list are already met by Tesla, but at what cost? At least the TCO needs to be competitive with ICE. Even better when the initial purchase price is. The Leaf is getting there. The Bolt is close too, considering the cash Chevy has been putting on the hood of late.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

cwerdna
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Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:01 pm

Reminder about Federal tax credit on GM EVs/PHEVs falling to $1875 on 10/1/19. If you want to buy a Bolt, this might be a better time... unless GM further discounts Bolts to make up for the tax credit reduction.

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