GRA
Posts: 12488
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:34 pm

IEVS:
Dutch Taxi Company Sues Tesla For €1.3 Million Due To Defective Cars
https://insideevs.com/news/459071/dutch ... 1-million/

BIOS-Groep has 20 taxis that have stopped operating due to a long list of defects.

A lot has happened since the Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam got 167 Model S as taxicabs in 2014. In 2018, BIOS-Groep traded some Model S units Model X vehicles. In its blog, Tesla seemed pretty proud of the deal. The taxi company also looked that way until it revealed that it was its last attempt to keep using the brand's EVs. BIOS-Groep went public because it has had enough: it is now suing Tesla for €1.3 million in losses due to car defects. . . .

BIOS-Groep said the problems range from suspensions breaking up to a broken power steering. Tofik Ohoudi is the manager of the Schiphol fleet and he told FD he has never faced more trouble than with Tesla cars. The broken wishbones are something he has never seen in vehicles with less than 500,000 kilometers (311,000 miles). . . .

As you have seen [GRA: In the accompanying video] the Model X squeaks as if it begged not to be driven again. It probably happened just to shoot the video and the SUV got back to where 20 other vehicles wait for repair. BIOS-Groep said the problems range from suspensions breaking up to a broken power steering. Tofik Ohoudi is the manager of the Schiphol fleet and he told FD he has never faced more trouble than with Tesla cars. The broken wishbones are something he has never seen in vehicles with less than 500,000 kilometers (311,000 miles).

Another company called Taxi Jappie also uses Tesla vehicles at the Schiphol Airport. Its director, Jill Sweijen, said she never had to replace a suspension structural component in any of the Mercedes-Benz the company had. Taxi Jappie currently works with ten Tesla vehicles at the Dutch airport.

Apart from having the same issues, this company had another troubling situation with Tesla. Seven of its ten vehicles had differences in distances between the cars’ odometers and the mileage presented by their BCT (board-computer-taxi, or computerized taximeters). One of them had a difference of more than 4,700 km (2,920 miles).

Tesla consultants would have suggested by email to adjust the car odometers, which could be seen by Dutch authorities as a fraud attempt. FD reports it saw a copy of this message. When Taxi Jappie asked Tesla to write a document justifying why it would do that in the odometers, it never heard back from the company again on the matter.

Back to BIOS-Groep, its factsheet says that the first Model S units it had did not comply with the minimum range requirement of 400 kilometers (249 miles). Tesla would have ensured them it could get 500 km (311 miles). The taxi company said the sedans did not reach even 400 km and that there was an immediate range drop as soon as the cars started to be used, which led them to a maximum range of 360 km (224 miles).

A while later, Tesla would have cut the range by another 15 percent when it set an 85 percent of capacity limit. This is what led Model S owners to sue Tesla back in August 2019: a voltage cap that they claim that was used to conceal battery pack fire risks.

Unhappy about the Model S, BIOS-Groep would have asked for the Model X and paid more €8 million to get 64 units of the electric SUV. It did not present range issues as the Model S. Regardless, the taxi company said the vehicles were much worse than the sedans in terms of reliability. They presented problems on the suspension upper arms, air suspension system, drive shafts, power steering, cameras, touchscreen, air-conditioning, doors, sensors, 12V battery and on Autopilot.

In 2018, BIOS-Groep said Tesla would fix the cars for free. The issue was that the repairs took weeks – one of them was with the Service Center for five months. In 2019, the EV maker started charging and “invoked warranty conditions” the taxi company said it did not know about.

Tesla also started to demand pre-payments and limited the amount of taxicabs it would fix at each time: only two would be allowed to the Amsterdam-Zuidoost Service Center. BIOS-Groep did not manage to talk to Tesla anymore, only through an online form. . . .

While BIOS-Groep waits for a new decision, it bought five Audi E-Tron units to use as taxicabs. According to René van der Veer, the company’s CEO, he knows someone will pick up the phone when he needs to have these EVs serviced. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GaleHawkins
Posts: 441
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:32 am

GRA wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:34 pm
IEVS:
Dutch Taxi Company Sues Tesla For €1.3 Million Due To Defective Cars
https://insideevs.com/news/459071/dutch ... 1-million/

BIOS-Groep has 20 taxis that have stopped operating due to a long list of defects.

A lot has happened since the Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam got 167 Model S as taxicabs in 2014. In 2018, BIOS-Groep traded some Model S units Model X vehicles. In its blog, Tesla seemed pretty proud of the deal. The taxi company also looked that way until it revealed that it was its last attempt to keep using the brand's EVs. BIOS-Groep went public because it has had enough: it is now suing Tesla for €1.3 million in losses due to car defects. . . .

BIOS-Groep said the problems range from suspensions breaking up to a broken power steering. Tofik Ohoudi is the manager of the Schiphol fleet and he told FD he has never faced more trouble than with Tesla cars. The broken wishbones are something he has never seen in vehicles with less than 500,000 kilometers (311,000 miles). . . .

As you have seen [GRA: In the accompanying video] the Model X squeaks as if it begged not to be driven again. It probably happened just to shoot the video and the SUV got back to where 20 other vehicles wait for repair. BIOS-Groep said the problems range from suspensions breaking up to a broken power steering. Tofik Ohoudi is the manager of the Schiphol fleet and he told FD he has never faced more trouble than with Tesla cars. The broken wishbones are something he has never seen in vehicles with less than 500,000 kilometers (311,000 miles).

Another company called Taxi Jappie also uses Tesla vehicles at the Schiphol Airport. Its director, Jill Sweijen, said she never had to replace a suspension structural component in any of the Mercedes-Benz the company had. Taxi Jappie currently works with ten Tesla vehicles at the Dutch airport.

Apart from having the same issues, this company had another troubling situation with Tesla. Seven of its ten vehicles had differences in distances between the cars’ odometers and the mileage presented by their BCT (board-computer-taxi, or computerized taximeters). One of them had a difference of more than 4,700 km (2,920 miles).

Tesla consultants would have suggested by email to adjust the car odometers, which could be seen by Dutch authorities as a fraud attempt. FD reports it saw a copy of this message. When Taxi Jappie asked Tesla to write a document justifying why it would do that in the odometers, it never heard back from the company again on the matter.

Back to BIOS-Groep, its factsheet says that the first Model S units it had did not comply with the minimum range requirement of 400 kilometers (249 miles). Tesla would have ensured them it could get 500 km (311 miles). The taxi company said the sedans did not reach even 400 km and that there was an immediate range drop as soon as the cars started to be used, which led them to a maximum range of 360 km (224 miles).

A while later, Tesla would have cut the range by another 15 percent when it set an 85 percent of capacity limit. This is what led Model S owners to sue Tesla back in August 2019: a voltage cap that they claim that was used to conceal battery pack fire risks.

Unhappy about the Model S, BIOS-Groep would have asked for the Model X and paid more €8 million to get 64 units of the electric SUV. It did not present range issues as the Model S. Regardless, the taxi company said the vehicles were much worse than the sedans in terms of reliability. They presented problems on the suspension upper arms, air suspension system, drive shafts, power steering, cameras, touchscreen, air-conditioning, doors, sensors, 12V battery and on Autopilot.

In 2018, BIOS-Groep said Tesla would fix the cars for free. The issue was that the repairs took weeks – one of them was with the Service Center for five months. In 2019, the EV maker started charging and “invoked warranty conditions” the taxi company said it did not know about.

Tesla also started to demand pre-payments and limited the amount of taxicabs it would fix at each time: only two would be allowed to the Amsterdam-Zuidoost Service Center. BIOS-Groep did not manage to talk to Tesla anymore, only through an online form. . . .

While BIOS-Groep waits for a new decision, it bought five Audi E-Tron units to use as taxicabs. According to René van der Veer, the company’s CEO, he knows someone will pick up the phone when he needs to have these EVs serviced. . . .
I guess they should have bought the Audi E-Tron units back in 2014 instead of early Tesla proto types.

cwerdna
Posts: 11550
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:38 am

Audi e-tron BEV didn't exist in 2014.

'19 Bolt Premier
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'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:16 am

Musk doesn't believe in the kind of over-engineering and long term testing that is routine among many auto manufacturers. I'm not surprised that the result is cars that fall apart under heavy use, as in taxi cab service.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GRA
Posts: 12488
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:14 pm

IEVS:
Chinese Court Blames Tesla For Hiding Structural Issues In Used Model S
https://insideevs.com/news/459828/tesla ... s-model-s/

Tesla will have to give the money back and pay three times that amount as compensation.

Having a direct-sales model and no dealerships presents many advantages for Tesla and also some serious issues. It can’t sell in all states, for example. Another problem is that anything that happens in its Service Centers is on Tesla’s back, not anyone else’s, as a recent case in China shows. The company was sentenced to pay three times what a customer spent on his Model S P85 after discovering the car had structural damages.

As Sina Finance reports, Han Chao bought his certified used Tesla on June 1, 2019, for 379,700 RMB ($58,002 under the current exchange rate). The company told him the car passed 200 tests and had not suffered any major accidents nor presented any structural damages.

That did not prevent Chao from having to make seven repairs in the car from June 5 up to August 24, 2019, when the car stopped working on the road at 120 km/h (75 mph). According to the court ruling Chao shared, he heard a loud noise, the accelerator pedal stopped working, and five fault codes popped out. Chao made it to the road shoulder but said he could have been involved in a serious accident. In total, the car was repaired more than ten times and spent 80 days at the Tianjin Tesla Service Center, where Chao lives. . . .


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HomeTeslaModel SNewsSafety
Chinese Court Blames Tesla For Hiding Structural Issues In Used Model S

Dec 11, 2020 6h ago
10
Gustavo Henrique Ruffo
By: Gustavo Henrique Ruffo
Tesla will have to give the money back and pay three times that amount as compensation.
Having a direct-sales model and no dealerships presents many advantages for Tesla and also some serious issues. It can’t sell in all states, for example. Another problem is that anything that happens in its Service Centers is on Tesla’s back, not anyone else’s, as a recent case in China shows. The company was sentenced to pay three times what a customer spent on his Model S P85 after discovering the car had structural damages.


As Sina Finance reports, Han Chao bought his certified used Tesla on June 1, 2019, for 379,700 RMB ($58,002 under the current exchange rate). The company told him the car passed 200 tests and had not suffered any major accidents nor presented any structural damages.

That did not prevent Chao from having to make seven repairs in the car from June 5 up to August 24, 2019, when the car stopped working on the road at 120 km/h (75 mph). According to the court ruling Chao shared, he heard a loud noise, the accelerator pedal stopped working, and five fault codes popped out. Chao made it to the road shoulder but said he could have been involved in a serious accident. In total, the car was repaired more than ten times and spent 80 days at the Tianjin Tesla Service Center, where Chao lives. . . .

On November 15, 2019, Chao took his car to Wanfeng Motor Vehicle Appraisal and discovered the electric sedan was involved in a crash before being sold to him. The repair demanded replacing the C-pillar and the rear fender: the damaged ones were cut. That was the main reason for him to sue the company. . . .

Starting the lawsuit was Chao’s last option. He asked for the car to be replaced, but Tesla refused. Without an option, he tried to sue the company in Tianjin but was obliged to take his lawsuit to Beijing, which is 114 km (71 miles) away from his home and from the Service Center where he took delivery of his car. He started the proceedings on March 10. . . .
.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GaleHawkins
Posts: 441
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:38 am

cwerdna wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:38 am
Audi e-tron BEV didn't exist in 2014.
Thanks. I now understand why the market cap set by Tesla shareholders is 5x greater than the market cap set by VW shareholders.

GRA
Posts: 12488
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:09 pm

ABG:
Tesla will halt Model S and X production for 18 days

The high-end EVs just aren't in much demand
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/13/tes ... n-stopped/

. . . CNBC has obtained an internal Tesla email revealing that the automaker will shut down production for the Model S and Model X between December 24th and January 11th, or 18 days. The company noted in a separate email that demand for its cars was “quite a bit higher” than supply during the quarter, according to the leak, so there’s clearly interest in the more affordable Model 3 and Model Y.

Workers will reportedly get a full week’s pay, a few paid holidays and “limited paid opportunities” to work with other teams, but that still leaves five unpaid days off for those who can’t find additional gigs or use their own paid time off. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

webeleafowners
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:23 pm

GRA wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:09 pm
ABG:
Tesla will halt Model S and X production for 18 days

The high-end EVs just aren't in much demand
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/13/tes ... n-stopped/

. . . CNBC has obtained an internal Tesla email revealing that the automaker will shut down production for the Model S and Model X between December 24th and January 11th, or 18 days. The company noted in a separate email that demand for its cars was “quite a bit higher” than supply during the quarter, according to the leak, so there’s clearly interest in the more affordable Model 3 and Model Y.

Workers will reportedly get a full week’s pay, a few paid holidays and “limited paid opportunities” to work with other teams, but that still leaves five unpaid days off for those who can’t find additional gigs or use their own paid time off. . . .
JMHO but I think the shutdown will be for line upgrades for Model S plaid. Tri motor, new battery etc, one piece rear chassis piece etc.

I doubt it has anything to do with demand.
2020 Model 3 Tesla. AWD with FSD. Deep metallic blue. Our daily driver.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh Culis Red. Sold. Was my daily driver. Loved that car.
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

GRA
Posts: 12488
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:55 pm

webeleafowners wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:23 pm
GRA wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:09 pm
ABG:
Tesla will halt Model S and X production for 18 days

The high-end EVs just aren't in much demand
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/13/tes ... n-stopped/

. . . CNBC has obtained an internal Tesla email revealing that the automaker will shut down production for the Model S and Model X between December 24th and January 11th, or 18 days. The company noted in a separate email that demand for its cars was “quite a bit higher” than supply during the quarter, according to the leak, so there’s clearly interest in the more affordable Model 3 and Model Y.

Workers will reportedly get a full week’s pay, a few paid holidays and “limited paid opportunities” to work with other teams, but that still leaves five unpaid days off for those who can’t find additional gigs or use their own paid time off. . . .
JMHO but I think the shutdown will be for line upgrades for Model S plaid. Tri motor, new battery etc, one piece rear chassis piece etc.

I doubt it has anything to do with demand
.

Could be, OTOH the article goes on to say:
A demand shortfall wouldn’t be a complete surprise. Production of more affordable EVs outstripped the luxury vehicles a long time ago. Tesla delivered just 15,200 Model S and X units in the third quarter of 2020 out of a total 139,300 cars. There’s also the question of pent-up interest for the souped-up “Plaid” Model S — if you can afford to splurge on an upscale EV, you might be tempted to wait for the most powerful version.

Considering that the S is eight years old and the X is five?, there's only a limited market for cars that expensive and there are some new kids on or soon to appear the block, it would be surprising if the S/X didn't see a fall off of demand. All the cars I've seen on transporters recently have been 3s and Ys.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

webeleafowners
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:01 am

GRA wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:55 pm
webeleafowners wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:23 pm
JMHO but I think the shutdown will be for line upgrades for Model S plaid. Tri motor, new battery etc, one piece rear chassis piece etc.

I doubt it has anything to do with demand
.

Could be, OTOH the article goes on to say:
A demand shortfall wouldn’t be a complete surprise. Production of more affordable EVs outstripped the luxury vehicles a long time ago. Tesla delivered just 15,200 Model S and X units in the third quarter of 2020 out of a total 139,300 cars. There’s also the question of pent-up interest for the souped-up “Plaid” Model S — if you can afford to splurge on an upscale EV, you might be tempted to wait for the most powerful version.

Considering that the S is eight years old and the X is five?, there's only a limited market for cars that expensive and there are some new kids on or soon to appear the block, it would be surprising if the S/X didn't see a fall off of demand. All the cars I've seen on transporters recently have been 3s and Ys.
If it’s truly a significant upgrade there may be a deal or 3 in the new year on “the old” version.
2020 Model 3 Tesla. AWD with FSD. Deep metallic blue. Our daily driver.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh Culis Red. Sold. Was my daily driver. Loved that car.
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

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