GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:24 pm

Via GCC:
Transport for London launches first all-electric, long-range double-decker BYD buses into service
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03 ... 9-tfl.html
The buses are equipped with BYD-designed and built Li-ion iron phosphate batteries, delivering 345 kWh of power and with an industry-benchmark 12-year battery warranty, the longest electric battery warranty available.

The batteries can power the bus for over 24 hours and up to 190 miles of typical urban driving on the service routes with a single daily recharging requiring only four hours. . . .

TfL is putting five of the all-electric double decker buses on Route 98 operated on behalf of TfL by Metroline. Route 98 was chosen given its status as a pollution hotspot in the city.
I've been a fan of LiFePO4 for its long cycle life, heat tolerance and thermal stability even though it lags other Li-ion chemistries in energy density, so I'll be watching operator experience with BYD's buses intently.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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paulgipe
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:56 am

Paul[/quote]
Okay, thanks. I figured that was probably the case, but thought I'd ask in case you left out any info from your post for length or other reasons. I hope we'll start to see more bus and taxi operators insist on battery warranties such as the one that BYD is offering, because lacking long-term data or a warranty, any claims of LCO savings and long-term suitability are speculative. It really bugs me when some company makes such claims after a few months of a year of testing, when the systems will need to last many times that for any such savings to eventuate. All toooften that leads to very public failure, bad press and long-term damage to the tech's reputation.[/quote]

GRA,

Wholeheartedly agree. I've been fighting hype and overselling in wind energy for four decades. Subsequent failure to meet inflated performance projections just give the industry a black eye. Alas, I still see it everyday. Fortunately, there's enough data now to show what works and what doesn't.

Paul
Bakersfield, California
2017 Bolt LT with DCFC, leased 11/09/17
2015 Nissan S with QC, leased, returned
2013 Chevy Volt Premium, used 10/3/16, sold
L2; ClipperCreek HCS-40; Jesla; JDapter Stub
http://www.wind-works.org

GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:36 pm

paulgipe wrote:
GRA wrote:Okay, thanks. I figured that was probably the case, but thought I'd ask in case you left out any info from your post for length or other reasons. I hope we'll start to see more bus and taxi operators insist on battery warranties such as the one that BYD is offering, because lacking long-term data or a warranty, any claims of LCO savings and long-term suitability are speculative. It really bugs me when some company makes such claims after a few months or a year of testing, when the systems will need to last many times that for any such savings to eventuate. All too often that leads to very public failure, bad press and long-term damage to the tech's reputation.
GRA,

Wholeheartedly agree. I've been fighting hype and overselling in wind energy for four decades. Subsequent failure to meet inflated performance projections just give the industry a black eye. Alas, I still see it everyday. Fortunately, there's enough data now to show what works and what doesn't.

Paul
I think we've both been there, and when I was designing and selling off-grid systems my whole attitude was to under-promise and over-deliver. I'd happily pass up a sale if I felt there was a likelihood of customer disappointment, and If we lacked reliable long-term data (like when amorphous silicon PV came in), I made sure the customer understood the uncertainties before they made a decision. Having advocates driven as much or more by ideology than profit cuts both ways. It may lead to better business ethics as above, but it's equally likely to lead to excessive optimism/over-promotion/blindness to or ignoring of disadvantages or faults.

For better or worse, AE has entered the age of big business, and the entrepreneurs who only see dollar signs have moved in. To be sure, the mainstreaming of AE has lead to lots of R&D money being funneled in to improvements, cost reductions, standardization and widespread adoption, and that's exactly what we were trying to bring about 'back in the day'.

EVs are going through the same process, as the early adopters/advocates/ideologues give way to the mainstream/business people, so it's deja vu all over again. ;) I've spent much of the past 4.5 years here trying to inject a note of caution into the often over-enthusiastic claims of early adopters, and (especially in the first couple of years) those of us who did so were regularly accused of being anti-EV. Now that people have had time to experience their cars over a period of years and the initial "I'm driving an EV!" excitement has faded, and they're looking more objectively at how the vehicles perform as cars, there's a lot more realism and caution, and I only get accused of being anti-EV now once a year on average. :lol:
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:08 pm

Via GCC:
King County Metro completes accelerated durability and reliability testing of Proterra electric bus
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03 ... 0-kcm.html
King County Metro Transit (KCM) in Washington state has completed an accelerated durability and reliability test of the Proterra Catalyst 40' FC (fast charge) battery-electric bus. Simulating one year of continuous operation with a constant 97 passenger equivalent load, this was the most rigorous test of its nature yet performed in the industry.

Operating 24 hours per day over the 106-day period, the Proterra Catalyst vehicle achieved 32,545 total miles . . . The bus was hauling 14,500 lbs (6,577 kg) of water ballast during the entire test period, which represents 125% of a normal full load of 77 passengers with standees. . . .
While useful, I hope the operator doesn't base long-term cost projections on any 'accelerated test' regime. I think we've seen with the LEAF where that can get you.
Last edited by GRA on Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Reddy
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:00 pm

Agreed, but at least they tested it in the WINTER so they know what some of the worst conditions will be. Full defrost is needed to keep the windows clear, especially with 50 soaking wet people on a Seattle bus! Probably by running continuously and always charging, they kept the battery warm.
Reddy
2011 SL; 9 bar, 45.80 AHr; 45,000 mi; rcv'd Aug 18, 2011
Long: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... al#p226115"
Cold: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p243033"

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RegGuheert
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:48 am

GRA wrote:While useful, I hope the operator doesn't base long-term cost projections on any 'accelerated test' regime. I think we've seen with the LEAF where that can get you.
Agreed. Accelerated testing (constant cycling) of batteries can be quite a deceptive indication of battery longevity since calendar losses are significant in most applications.

Also, nowhere in this article or in the link that it referenced does anyone reference battery capacity. It seems they have chosen to ignore the single largest long-term cost factor.

Still, I'm happy to see these battery-powered busses come into service. It appears they are fully capable of doing the job:
The vehicle averaged 325 miles (523 km) each day, with a maximum mileage of 572 miles (921 km) in one day, and was charged more than 1,750 times during the test period.
And they apparently have the potential to offset any additional costs related to the battery manufacture and maintenance, although no one seems to want to talk about those higher costs (kinda like the early days on this forum):
Average fuel economy was 15 MPGe over this testing period, 3.125-times more efficient than current KCM 40' diesel buses (4.8 MPG). This is projected to improve to 18 MPGe (3.75 x diesel) at normal loads. (Proterra Altoona test results yielded 22 MPGe.) KCM’s diesel-hybrid buses average 6.3 MPG.

Total estimated cost of maintenance for this test, incl. parts & labor was approximately $0.20/mile, compared to $0.90/mile for diesel; $1.10/mile for diesel hybrid; and $1.00/mile for CNG buses.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:46 pm

This is HEV rather than BEV-bus related, but may be of interest nevertheless. Via GCC:
AC Transit Board greenlights a $108M, 9.5-mile infrastructure project for first Bus Rapid Transit line; diesel-hybrid buses
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04 ... ctbrt.html
. . . Construction of the 150 block transit service (that spans 9.5 miles) is slated to begin in May 2016 with service expected to begin in November 2017. . . .

The BRT will operate inside a transit-only lane for most of the 9.5 mile route with stops at raised station platforms. The service will run on new 60-foot diesel-electric hybrid buses manufactured by New Flyer. Each bus is specially designed with five-doors to quicken the boarding process. . . .
This is being financed by a county 0.5 cent (on top of an existing 0.5 cent) transportation sales tax we passed last year, plus parcel taxes and federal money. The route includes all the usual BRT measures: dedicated lanes, raised platforms for straight-in boarding, short headways (5 minutes peak, 10 minutes off-peak), signal priority, wider stop spacing (every 1/3rd mile). There are a couple of other measures to reduce dwell time at stops:, interior bike racks, and "innovative wheelchair tie-down systems." Unstated in the article is whether they will use pre-boarding payment, as is typical of BRT - I assume so. [Edit]: Found a press release which mentions ticket machines at the stations, so almost certainly yes.

Although the rest of the fleet is diesel (except for 12 fuel cell buses, one of which passed 20k hours of operation last August), It strikes me as slightly odd that AC Transit is going with diesel-electric hybrids. Maybe none of the BEV or FCEV buses were available with the necessary combination of range, performance, articulation (their current articulated buses are also made by New Flyer) and known cost of ownership, but this would seem a good route to go ZEV from the get-go. In any case, although it doesn't extend as far as me (I use BART trains instead, which run parallel to this to the west), it's good to see the Bay Area finally getting a real BRT line. Once in, it can eventually be turned into a light rail line if the traffic demands it and funds are available. The article says that a light rail line would have cost $70m/mile, versus $25m/mile for BRT.
Last edited by GRA on Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 11174
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:55 pm

Via ievs.com:
BYD Receives US Orders For Electric Buses From Link Transit And SolTrans
http://insideevs.com/byd-receives-order ... -soltrans/
. . . The first new customer is Link Transit, in the City of Wenatchee, Washington, which this summer will receive four new BYD K9S 35ft. . . .

The second new order is for two BYD K9 (40 footers) for Solano County Transit (SolTrans), that operate in the Cities of Benicia and Vallejo in California. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 11174
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:24 pm

Via GCC:
Proterra racks up 33 more orders for electric buses through FTA Low-No awards
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04 ... terra.html
Proterra . . . announced that SEPTA, Foothill Transit and King County Metro will use their Federal Transit Administration (FTA) Low or No Emission Vehicle Deployment Grants (Low-No) (earlier post) to purchase 33 Catalyst electric buses and charging infrastructure.

These latest orders bring Proterra’s total number of orders to 155 vehicles from 16 transit agencies across the United States. Proterra customers won 33 of the 55 buses awarded under the Low-No program. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 11174
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:38 pm

Via GCC:
Utah Transits Authority adding 5 battery-electric New Flyer buses to fleet
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04 ... 3-uta.html
UTA and the University of Utah received a $5.4-million Low-No grant from the US Federal Transit Administration (FTA) to purchase five New Flyer battery-electric buses. (Earlier post.) Three of these will be used on route 2 in Salt Lake City and two that will serve the University of Utah campus (also in Salt Lake City). . . .

An electrically-driven air conditioning system is used to cool the bus when needed. For moderately cold temperatures, the bus uses electric heating. For very cold conditions, an optional liquid fuel heater warms the passenger cabin using a small amount of renewable bio-diesel. This helps maintain bus range during very cold climate conditions. . . .
Finally.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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