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TonyWilliams
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:50 am

One all-electric bus will be delivered to Ben Franklin Transit in Richland, Washington.

While many busses seem to have proprietary charging, this one uses CHAdeMO.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:51 am

Another nail in the coffin of H2 for transport...

"AVTA (Antelope, Califonia) which serves 450,000 residents in the metro Los Angeles region, aims to become the first 100% electric public transit fleet in the country. It plans to take delivery of 85 BYD electric buses over the next five years.

The AVTA board has unanimously approved the purchase of a wireless charging system from Utah-based WAVE (profiled in the March/April 2016 issue of Charged). The WAVE system provides en-route charging using a pad embedded directly into the roadway, extending the fleet’s range to cover the agency’s longest rural routes."


Obviously, they are just waiting for those extra special hydrogen busses ;-)

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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:59 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:Another nail in the coffin of H2 for transport...

"AVTA (Antelope, Califonia) which serves 450,000 residents in the metro Los Angeles region, aims to become the first 100% electric public transit fleet in the country. It plans to take delivery of 85 BYD electric buses over the next five years.

The AVTA board has unanimously approved the purchase of a wireless charging system from Utah-based WAVE (profiled in the March/April 2016 issue of Charged). The WAVE system provides en-route charging using a pad embedded directly into the roadway, extending the fleet’s range to cover the agency’s longest rural routes."


Obviously, they are just waiting for those extra special hydrogen busses ;-)
If BEV buses can do the job at the lowest TCO, then by all means. AVTA apparently serves Lancaster and Palmdale. Judging by the system map the routes are fairly short, and cold weather obviously isn't a problem, so this seems a very good match for BEV buses.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:51 pm

GRA wrote:If BEV buses can do the job at the lowest TCO, then by all means. AVTA apparently serves Lancaster and Palmdale. Judging by the system map the routes are fairly short, and cold weather obviously isn't a problem, so this seems a very good match for BEV buses.
Plus they have in-the-ground inductive charging at the bus stops.

All very simple with "today" technology. Sorry Charlie, but hydrogen isn't going to take this market over from EVs. There was a window of opportunity, and it appears to have all but closed (except for grossly subsidized hydrogen programs).

Municipal buses (even in cold areas) can easily be upgraded for longer range... bio fuel cabin heaters, insulation around the heated batteries, maybe slightly larger packs to get the same job done as the summer months.

Any bus district could put a quick charger on every street corner for the price of just the maintenance on one hydrogen facility.

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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:20 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
GRA wrote:If BEV buses can do the job at the lowest TCO, then by all means. AVTA apparently serves Lancaster and Palmdale. Judging by the system map the routes are fairly short, and cold weather obviously isn't a problem, so this seems a very good match for BEV buses.
Plus they have in-the-ground inductive charging at the bus stops.

All very simple with "today" technology. Sorry Charlie, but hydrogen isn't going to take this market over from EVs. There was a window of opportunity, and it appears to have all but closed (except for grossly subsidized hydrogen programs).

Municipal buses (even in cold areas) can easily be upgraded for longer range... bio fuel cabin heaters, insulation around the heated batteries, maybe slightly larger packs to get the same job done as the summer months.

Any bus district could put a quick charger on every street corner for the price of just the maintenance on one hydrogen facility.
Uh, you've seen the cost figures that would prove that? And the TCOs on both techs? ISTM that most transit operators and the manufacturers are still at the real-world data-gathering stage. Both techs remain immature with a lot of long term unknowns, FCEVs more so. It's unquestionably true that BEVs are more suited when the range is less, and FCEVs are at their best at longer ranges, simply because of the way weight increases on both of them. With BEVs, more range takes a lot more weight, less range less. With FCEVs (as with liquid fueled ICEs), most of the weight is in the power systems, and adding more fuel adds relatively little. So, for local bus runs, as long as a BEV has the necessary performance it's the go to choice. For long distance runs, with high speeds, few stops and short dwell times, the FCEV is currently superior.

I agree about the fuel-fired heaters, though, that would certainly help BEV buses (and BEVs in general) in cold climates, and I can't figure out why no manufacturer (other than Volvo IIRR) has offered this on a BEV, bus or other. Whether it would give BEV buses the range to deal with long, cold and/or steep rural routes and have lower TCOs, who knows? No one here does, unless you have access to cost figures that the rest of us don't.

What's the cost of adding bigger packs, just for winter? That's a lot of capital sitting around most of the year, so you might want it on the buses year round, but that adds to capital and maintenance costs (batteries being heavy, more drivetrain and suspension wear, more powerful motor needed for same performance etc. etc.).

None of the current gen of BEV/PHEV/FCEV buses have been in revenue service for an entire lifetime, so all the TCO claims for them remain predictions instead of fact, barring a turn-key contract like the one that Volvo recently signed with a transit agency in Luxembourg. In that case, all the TCO risk is on Volvo, as the agency is just paying a fixed monthly cost for the use of 5 PHEV buses for a certain period of time, and it's up to Volvo to make sure they provide the number required, do all the maintenance etc. If Volvo's predictions are wrong, they take a bath. Luxembourg has been using Volvo HEV buses since 2011, so moving to PHEVs is a pretty small risk. It's claimed that up to 70% of the running can be on batteries, with chargers (roof mounted pantographs for the connection) located at the ends of routes.

I don't know that any BEV or FCEV bus manufacturer has enough knowledge now that would give them the confidence to offer such a package - is anyone aware of such a contract?

BTW, does anyone know if BYD's "12 year" battery warranty includes capacity? I've never seen this confirmed, and AFAICT it's just parts and materials. ISTM that the most important issue for BEV bus TCO is whether or not the pack can last the 12 year lifetime of the average transit bus or whether you need at least one pack replacement, and the cost of same. Ditto for the stack in an FCEV.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:52 pm

The BYD bus that I rode in London two years ago had liquid cabin heater (diesel, I believe).

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:28 am

Another nail in the coffin of hydrogen buses:

http://cleantechnica.com/2016/06/17/ele ... ectations/

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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:38 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:The BYD bus that I rode in London two years ago had liquid cabin heater (diesel, I believe).
Somewhat defeats the purpose, although it's far better than having the bus itself run on the stuff.. Bio-diesel, maybe, but better yet something cleaner emissions-wise, say CNG. OTOH, if you can re-charge on the route, you may be able to do without the auxiliary heater.

(Bio)-diesel would be okay for long-range BEV cars, as they'll only need the auxiliary heat on long cold trips instead of in built-up urban areas. Ethanol might also be an option. I expect the biggest problem with cars, aside from space considerations, would be that if the heater was an option crash testing would have to be performed both with and without it and its fuel, boosting the cost. I suspect it would still be cheaper and less space/weight intensive than a bigger battery pack, at least for this and maybe the next generation of BEVs.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:15 pm

Via GCC:
BYD announces its first 16 electric buses sold in France; RATP trial; expanding capacity in China
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/06 ... 9-byd.html
. . . BYD also announced a six-month trial with Paris operator RATP and unveiled its 12 meter single deck bus—displayed for the first time in France. BYD is the world’s largest manufacturer of battery-electric buses, having produced 10,000 units so far.

BYD France’s first customer is B.E. Green of Yvelines near Paris which has ordered three BYD pure electric coaches and one 12m BYD ebus to add to its 100% electric fleet. The Nedroma Group of Athis Mons, also close to Paris, has ordered 12 BYD electric coaches—the largest order so far for this new model from a Western customer. . . .

RATP trial. The bus will begin operation with RATP in September this year and will run until February 2017—so spanning the extremes of hot and cold temperatures in the French capital. The trial will include operation on routes 21 and 147.

From 2020, all public transport organizations in France will have to purchase at least 50% clean vehicles in their fleet renewal plans. The Project “Bus 2025” consists of the renewal of the complete RATP fleet to clean vehicles. Several milestones are in place to achieve this by 2025 when the fleet should consist of 80% electric buses and 20% CNG buses.

The plan concerns the entire RATP bus network in Île-de-France—one of the largest in the world. It contains 350 lines and transports each year 1.1 billion passengers with a fleet consisting of 4,500 vehicles. Buses represents 50% of the carbon footprint of the RATP. . . .
The interactive route map for RATP is here: http://www.ratp.fr/plan-interactif/cartebus.php?lang=uk

I can find Route 21, but not 147; there is a Route 47.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:59 pm

Via GCC:
ABB wins 1st commercial order for 600 kW 15-second flash charging technology; electric buses in Geneva
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/07 ... 5-abb.html
. . . ABB will deliver and deploy 13 flash-charging stations along an urban transit bus route, as well as three terminal and four depot feeding stations. . . .
So, 2.5kWh per 15 sec. charge. I wonder how far that will take a bus? According to the article, they use a stationary battery at each charging site to reduce the momentary load on the grid, as well as "a further 4 to 5 minute charge at 400kW at the terminus of the line" to get a full charge. That would add 26 2/3 to 33 1/3 kWh.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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