GetOffYourGas
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:58 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
yes
Just to be sure we're on the same page: you know someone who claims to have bought a HEV because they didn't like the engine running in EV mode with a PHEV? Well, if so that makes my day!
Yes, I know two people (one family member, one coworker) who bought a Prius because there wasn't a PHEV with enough electric range for their normal use. When I asked them about it, their logic goes like this:
Well, I could get a Volt, but it only has (at the time) 35 miles of electric range. But that's not enough for my commute, so really it's going to burn gas at 35MPG. Instead, I could buy a Prius which gets 48MPG. Clearly the Prius burns less gas.
For reference:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do ... 0&id=30919

Nevermind the fact that the Volt burns no gas for the first 35 miles. In both cases, that's the morning commute and part of the evening return. But that didn't factor into their equation - they just looked at MPG and picked the "winner".

Now this was back in 2011/2012. Maybe times have changed a little? Certainly in the case of the family member, he always hears from me about how much gas my PHEV saves.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
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2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:43 pm

You need smarter friends. We got a PIP for less than a Prius II, and even if we never charged it the car would get better fuel economy than the II.
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GetOffYourGas
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:07 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:You need smarter friends. We got a PIP for less than a Prius II, and even if we never charged it the car would get better fuel economy than the II.
:lol:

I'm not really friends with that coworker and I didn't pick my brother-in-law, my sister did!
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
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GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:19 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:My opinion, as long as you can put up with the looks and (probably) the less sporty handling (it's a considerably heavier car), for the average buyer this one will win out over the Volt.
I can hardly see that. I just met a local man who purchased a 2017 Volt for $25,000 before the government rebate. He said he often gets close to 70 miles on the battery before the ICE kicks in.

On top of all that, the Chevy Volt has demonstrated extremely high reliability and excellent battery durability. While I have a 15.5-yo Honda Civic Hybrid on its original battery which I still love, they have had real issues in the area of battery durability which they have done little to address. There is a reason Honda does not sell very many hybrid vehicles these days.
There's certainly much to be said for the Volt, but I expect the Clarity's greater rear headroom and fifth seat as well as Honda's general reputation for reliability (even though that hasn't applied to their hybrids in the past) will weigh more heavily with the general public, at least until the Clarity PHEV's been around long enough that it's possible to make a useful comparison. And the new Accord hybrid's selling quite well also.

One thing that does concern me with the 2nd gen. Volt is that GM is using more of the SoC range than they did in the first, so we'll have to see if that causes the Volt pack's to lose the excellent reputation for longevity that the 1st gen. earned.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:33 am

GRA wrote:There's certainly much to be said for the Volt, but I expect the Clarity's greater rear headroom and fifth seat as well as Honda's general reputation for reliability (even though that hasn't applied to their hybrids in the past) will weigh more heavily with the general public, at least until the Clarity PHEV's been around long enough that it's possible to make a useful comparison. And the new Accord hybrid's selling quite well also.
The Chevy Volt also has a fifth seat. It may not be a great one, but it is there and can be used.
GRA wrote:One thing that does concern me with the 2nd gen. Volt is that GM is using more of the SoC range than they did in the first, so we'll have to see if that causes the Volt pack's to lose the excellent reputation for longevity that the 1st gen. earned.
Chevrolet has done an excellent job with building a durable solution for the Chevy Volt's battery. There is no reason to think that has changed. Honda, OTOH, has a reputation for delivering batteries with unacceptable durability.

The Honda Clarity is the new entry in this space. If you want to worry about the durability of the battery in one of these two cars, it would be for that of the one in the Clarity, not the one in the Volt.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
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GRA
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:14 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:There's certainly much to be said for the Volt, but I expect the Clarity's greater rear headroom and fifth seat as well as Honda's general reputation for reliability (even though that hasn't applied to their hybrids in the past) will weigh more heavily with the general public, at least until the Clarity PHEV's been around long enough that it's possible to make a useful comparison. And the new Accord hybrid's selling quite well also.
The Chevy Volt also has a fifth seat. It may not be a great one, but it is there and can be used.
I meant a true fifth seat, not one only suitable for children or short term use.
RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:One thing that does concern me with the 2nd gen. Volt is that GM is using more of the SoC range than they did in the first, so we'll have to see if that causes the Volt pack's to lose the excellent reputation for longevity that the 1st gen. earned.
Chevrolet has done an excellent job with building a durable solution for the Chevy Volt's battery. There is no reason to think that has changed.
There's certainly a reason to be concerned whether they will demonstrate the same longevity, when GM has increased the usable SoC from 65% to something over 75% (I've seen claims of 76-78%, and my own calcs come out in the same range).
RegGuheert wrote:Honda, OTOH, has a reputation for delivering batteries with unacceptable durability.

The Honda Clarity is the new entry in this space. If you want to worry about the durability of the battery in one of these two cars, it would be for that of the one in the Clarity, not the one in the Volt.
We have no disagreement that the Clarity is the major unknown, but that doesn't exclude concerns about the Volt as well for the reason stated. Nor do I think the majority of purchasers will even be aware of Honda's track record with HEV packs.

The 1st gen. Volt's track record is good, but 1st to 2nd gen. pack isn't an apples to apples comparison. If GM had kept the same usable SoC range while using the (slightly) improved cells, I'd be willing to make a more definitive prediction, but that would have only boosted AER to at best 45 miles, and more likely 42 or so. As it is, we'll have to wait to find out. That being said, I do believe that GM's approach of providing a robust TMS remains a necessary step for now, and is critical to long-term battery health over the full range of U.S. climates.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:22 pm

There's certainly a reason to be concerned whether they will demonstrate the same longevity, when GM has increased the usable SoC from 65% to something over 75% (I've seen claims of 76-78%, and my own calcs come out in the same range).
Anything up to 80% should be fine.
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:28 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
There's certainly a reason to be concerned whether they will demonstrate the same longevity, when GM has increased the usable SoC from 65% to something over 75% (I've seen claims of 76-78%, and my own calcs come out in the same range).
Anything up to 80% should be fine.
Based on what? There's already been an extended discussion of research, tests done, etc. for various SoCs/temps/chemistries, but unless they are done using the Volt 2's specific chemistry and other pack details in the specific conditions, the results are at best only general. To date we simply lack real-world (not accelerated lab) tests for the necessary period of time for the 2nd gen. Volt. When we get out to 4-5 years, we'll have a better idea.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:09 pm

Based on what? There's already been an extended discussion of research, tests done, etc. for various SoCs/temps/chemistries, but unless they are done using the Volt 2's specific chemistry and other pack details in the specific conditions, the results are at best only general. To date we simply lack real-world (not accelerated lab) tests for the necessary period of time for the 2nd gen. Volt. When we get out to 4-5 years, we'll have a better idea.
Based on real world experience with various lithium batteries. Nissan seems to have set the benchmark low with the "Canary" pack for longevity, and they don't seem to have degraded any faster at 80%. The Volt already has a good track record for battery longevity, so there is no reason at all to think that the packs will start to degrade faster under what is still a very reasonable SOC range. Toyota has had great success with a similar charge range in the regular Prius, and NiMH packs are more temperamental than lithium packs over long periods.
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RegGuheert
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Re: Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:29 am

GRA wrote:There's certainly a reason to be concerned whether they will demonstrate the same longevity, when GM has increased the usable SoC from 65% to something over 75% (I've seen claims of 76-78%, and my own calcs come out in the same range).
I know of nothing that indicates that increasing the range of cycling from 65% of SOC to 75% or even more has any significant impact on durability, so I will assume you are making this up until you produce some evidence to indicate that there is a *real* concern here.
GRA wrote:The 1st gen. Volt's track record is good, but 1st to 2nd gen. pack isn't an apples to apples comparison. If GM had kept the same usable SoC range while using the (slightly) improved cells, I'd be willing to make a more definitive prediction, but that would have only boosted AER to at best 45 miles, and more likely 42 or so. As it is, we'll have to wait to find out. That being said, I do believe that GM's approach of providing a robust TMS remains a necessary step for now, and is critical to long-term battery health over the full range of U.S. climates.
As stated, I believe your concerns about SOC range are unfounded. If you want to poke at something, then I would think the move from NCO to NMC would be a much bigger one.

Bottom line: The Honda Clarity is the PHEV to worry about in terms of battery durability, not the Chevy Volt.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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