GRA
Posts: 12394
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hyundai Ioniq BEV, hybrid, and PHEV.

Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:39 pm

Via IEVS, just for edatoakrun, as he's wondering about how fun to drive the Ionic might be compared to a LEAF on his typical roads:
Hyundai IONIQ Electric First Drive Review
http://insideevs.com/hyundai-ioniq-elec ... ve-review/
. . . According to Autocar, excitement isn’t the strong suit of the IONIQ Electric, but it’s still a decent car with relatively quick acceleration, excellent for city use with its smooth power delivery.

The quiet electric motor (as found in all other BEVs) does however reveal some background noise penetrating into the cabin –road roar and wind noise at speed, so perhaps not enough attention was given to insulating the plug-in version over the straight hybrid by Hyundai.

The brakes also don’t appeal to Autocar, as responsiveness seems to be an issue.

“Initial response is very sharp, but it feels like you need to push the pedal a long way further to get any meaningful stopping power”

The driving experience suggests that IONIQ Electric is positioned for normal driving, but without a sporty feel:

“Hyundai suggests that the Ioniq Electric should offer decent driving dynamics. The truth is that while it isn’t bad, it’s not going to set pulses racing. The steering has reasonable weight to it, but it’s vague around the straight-ahead and never communicates what the front wheels are doing.

There’s not a great deal of body roll, but it doesn’t take much to get the nose of the Ionic running wide; blame the low-resistance tyres for that. Pitch the car into a corner harder and you can tell the weight balance of the car is more even than that of a front-engined, front wheel-drive hatch, though.

Even so, this is a car that’s much happier being driven well within its limits. . . .”
So, it sounds like an e-Golf with a bigger battery would still be the affordable BEV to beat for driving dynamics.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

JejuSoul
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:54 am
Delivery Date: 03 Jul 2016
Location: Jeju

Re: Hyundai Ioniq BEV, hybrid, and PHEV.

Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:51 am

The AutoCar reviewer states "The driving experience suggests that IONIQ Electric is positioned for normal driving, but without a sporty feel:".
I can't argue against this because I never tried to drive the car other than normally. If 'fun to drive' is what you are looking for then it seems there are better choices than the IONIQ Electric. It seems rather dull but perhaps the best review of the IONIQ Electric would be to state that it is 'well positioned for normal driving'.

I will argue against the AutoCar reviewers poor understanding of regen.
You can alter how much the car decelerates when you lift off by using what look like gearshift paddles behind the steering wheel. The Ioniq starts with fairly weak regenerative braking initially, but this can be ramped up to slow the car faster and increase the amount of energy that goes back into the battery pack.

Although this does improve range and allows you to avoid pressing the brake the majority of the time, the regenerative braking is much more sudden than in a Nissan Leaf, for instance. We soon turned it back down again to make smoother progress.
It is regen zero (coasting) that increases range on the freeway; regen three (max regen) is useful when driving slowly down a steep, windy mountain road. (regen 1 is the same as 'D', regen 2 is the same as 'B')

Kia copied the Nissan Leaf when developing the Soul EV. The system of having 'D' and "B' modes is a halfway house for drivers who are new to EVs coming from ICE cars. Am glad Hyundai dropped this concept for a more sensible EV based system.

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Hyundai Ioniq BEV, hybrid, and PHEV.

Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:53 am

="JejuSoul"Hi

...Am currently trying to write a conclusion. I want to write a positive ending to this, but am struggling to find good reasons why anyone would actually buy this car. It is a great car in so many respects but only has half the battery capacity of what seems to be its main competitor.

edatoakrun: I appreciate your comments and If I may I would like to use them in my conclusion. "Even more important, I expect the IONIQ to be much more fun to drive on my mountain roads than the Bolt". And "That's close to all the range I want for occasional longer trips, and all I want to pay for and drag around with me on every other trip, when I don't need nearly that much."

I don't yet know if has been very attractively priced in the U.S...
US pricing has not been announced, but I do expect the Ioniq to be very attractively priced in terms of total cost of ownership (TCO) due to the myriad of incentives available to both EV buyers and manufactures,

See my previous post copied below, for more on both USA BEV TCO and why larger battery capacity is a mixed blessing, which comes at high costs, both in TCO and in efficiency.

BTW, do you have an accurate number for the curb (unladen) weight of the Korea market Ioniq BEV?
edatoakrun wrote:
="LKK"...Range is only half the next generation BEVs...
If by "next generation" you mean the Bolt, which will be on the US market only a few months later than the Ioniq, that is probably incorrect.

If you assume the Ioniq has ~half the total available capacity of the Bolt, it will still have more than half the total effective range, due to higher efficiency.

This will be particularly noticeable at high speeds and on trips with large ascents, due to the Bolts high weight and drag.

On a cold day at freeway speeds for example, the Ioniq might have close to 20% greater efficiency in m/kWh than the Bolt.

Meaning, that if you wanted to do something as foolish as take a very long freeway trip in either BEV using todays available DC infrastructure, generally limited to under 50 kW (and with many CCS DCs only ~ half that fast) you might actually be able to complete your trip almost as quickly, and perhaps even more rapidly, in an Ioniq than you could in a Bolt.

Due to the multiple rapid charge/discharge cycles required, the two BEVs differing thermal management systems might actually become the determining factor in this contest.

You'd definitely save some money driving the Ioniq on this trip (and every other) which many BEV drivers might find significant, particularly in consideration of how much many public DC sites charge per kWh.
="mtndrew1"...I'm not sure how they're going to compete with the Ioniq BEV unless it's very attractively priced...
Attractive pricing is how every affordable BEV/PHEV is currently being sold or leased, though The LEAF, one of the best selling, is still offered at close to the most expensive leases:

http://ev-vin.blogspot.com/2016/07/curr ... d-evs.html

I'm waiting for the Gen Two LEAF myself, but if it turns out to be something similar to either the Bolt or the Tesla 3, I doubt I'll be interested.
no condition is permanent

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Hyundai Ioniq BEV, hybrid, and PHEV.

Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:23 am

GRA wrote:Via IEVS, just for edatoakrun, as he's wondering about how fun to drive the Ionic might be compared to a LEAF on his typical roads:
Hyundai IONIQ Electric First Drive Review
http://insideevs.com/hyundai-ioniq-elec ... ve-review/

...it sounds like an e-Golf with a bigger battery would still be the affordable BEV to beat for driving dynamics.
I suggest you read the review by those who actually saw and drove the Ioniq, rather than the regurgitation of the article at the link you posted.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/hyu ... ric-review

It's pretty much a generic review comparing the Ioniq BEV to ICEVs.

As compliance BEV ICEV conversions go the Golf is far from the worst, but its poor efficiency due to being overweight and with poor aero design will not be improved by just stuffing a larger battery into it.

I remain disappointed by all current BEV offerings, none of which have improved very much on the 2011 LEAF, and which seemed designed more to satisfy what petroleum addicted drivers perceive they require, than to reach the inherent potential of BEVs.

I am still hoping the LEAF gen 2 will be the first real second-generation BEV, but I have no idea if that will be the case.
no condition is permanent

JejuSoul
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:54 am
Delivery Date: 03 Jul 2016
Location: Jeju

Re: Hyundai Ioniq BEV, hybrid, and PHEV.

Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:01 pm

edatoakrun wrote:BTW, do you have an accurate number for the curb (unladen) weight of the Korea market Ioniq BEV?
Image

According to the graphic above - 1445kg for the Ioniq Electric.
Compares to 1520kg for the 24kWh Leaf, 1538kg for the 24kWh e-Golf and 1624kg for the 60kWh Bolt.

Lighter weight clearly improves the efficiency.

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Hyundai Ioniq BEV, hybrid, and PHEV.

Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:27 pm

JejuSoul wrote: ...According to the graphic above - 1445kg for the Ioniq Electric.
Compares to 1520kg for the 24kWh Leaf, 1538kg for the 24kWh e-Golf and 1624kg for the 60kWh Bolt.

Lighter weight clearly improves the efficiency.
Thanks. That's a bit heavier than I was hoping for when first announced. From the first page of this thread:
edatoakrun wrote: ...I hope the Ioniq will have ~ the same capacity as the Soul...

I will be even more interested in the weight of the pack, and total vehicle weight.

If Hyundai uses LG cells with ~same density as GM has claimed for the Bolt, and doesn't weigh it down (and inflate the cost) by using an oversized pack, it could have a curb weight of close to 3,000 lbs. (~1360kg)

Meaning it could come close to matching the much smaller i-3 for city/mountain efficiency, and actually be fun to drive.
no condition is permanent

RonDawg
Posts: 3039
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2013
Leaf Number: 027089
Location: SoCal

Re: Hyundai Ioniq BEV, hybrid, and PHEV.

Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:17 pm

edatoakrun wrote:As compliance BEV ICEV conversions go the Golf is far from the worst, but its poor efficiency due to being overweight and with poor aero design will not be improved by just stuffing a larger battery into it.
I don't know what the total drag figures are for each, but I can tell you that I consistently get more miles per kWH in my eGolf than I ever did in my Leaf under the same driving conditions. My eGolf came with the Bridgestone "Ecopia Plus" tires with a manufacturer's tire pressure spec of 40 psi, which is what I also used on the Leaf. So the overall aerodynamics on the eGolf has to be better; I can't explain the superior "electron economy" any other way. It's not all that much different in city driving, but at freeway speeds you can really see the difference, often 1 kWH or better under similar conditions. I can easily take the freeway to destinations that would have required careful local street driving in the Leaf, even when it was new.

As far as "overweight" the heaviest eGolf at 3419 lbs is only 28 lbs heavier than the heaviest Leaf. (Both figures derived from a quick Google search for 2016 models.) While the heaviest Leaf is likely an SL with the 30 kWH battery, a 2012 Leaf with a 24 kWH battery could weigh as much as 3401 lbs.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

GRA
Posts: 12394
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hyundai Ioniq BEV, hybrid, and PHEV.

Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:43 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote:Via IEVS, just for edatoakrun, as he's wondering about how fun to drive the Ionic might be compared to a LEAF on his typical roads:
Hyundai IONIQ Electric First Drive Review
http://insideevs.com/hyundai-ioniq-elec ... ve-review/

...it sounds like an e-Golf with a bigger battery would still be the affordable BEV to beat for driving dynamics.
I suggest you read the review by those who actually saw and drove the Ioniq, rather than the regurgitation of the article at the link you posted. <snip>
I did before posting the other version, but I think they covered the main points adequately. It's not a car you drive for the excitement of carving twisty roads, any more than a Prius is. OTOH, the reviews I've read of the e-Golf all suggest that it's retained most of driving dynamics of its ICE siblings, which is to say it's far more of a driver's car than the typical Asian 'just get me reliably and economically from A to B' sedan/hatch is. Obviously there are exceptions to that, Mazda and some Subarus for example, Honda less than formerly.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Hyundai Ioniq BEV, hybrid, and PHEV.

Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:06 pm

UK Deliveries of the hybrid and BEV begin in ~2 weeks.

Site is up, with comprehensive info.
The All-New
Hyundai IONIQ Line-Up

Hybrid – Plug-in – Electric

World’s first vehicle platform with three electrified powertrains, making low- to zero-emission mobility accessible to everyone
http://www.hyundaimedia-ioniq.co.uk/en/
no condition is permanent

JejuSoul
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:54 am
Delivery Date: 03 Jul 2016
Location: Jeju

Re: Hyundai Ioniq BEV, hybrid, and PHEV.

Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:14 am

For edatoakrun - this review does seem to suggest that The Ioniq EV is fun to drive in the mountains.
...
As with many EVs, the acceleration times don't sound particularly quick, but it is the 'in-gear' acceleration that is most impressive. Shorter bursts like pulling away from the lights, nipping out of junctions, or accelerating from 30-50mph are completed extremely quickly, and the Ioniq Electric doesn't struggle at all in this regard. The Hyundai's electric motor has more than enough pulling power to get up steep hills or overtake on a country road. It's range also doesn't plummet as some of its rivals do when sitting at motorway speeds, making this a reasonable car to drive long distances in.
...
The steering doesn't provide much feedback, but it is accurate and responsive, with the driver only needing to take one bite at threading a line through a bend. This adds up to a car that you can have some fun with - for example when driving around some excellent driving roads on the North Wales test route - but one that is more comfortable around town.
from Hyundai Ioniq Electric review

Return to “Other Electric Cars & Plug-In Hybrids”