GRA
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Re: Subaru Crosstrek PHEV

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:31 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
if they need to simulate shifts why not just do them?
They do it only to please people like you. There is no practical reason to do it.
Other than NVH. Here's an example from the current RAV4 hybrid:
Working with a continuously variable transmission, the engine provides more than enough kick to get up to speed in a semi-quick fashion. The CVT hallmark of annoyingly loud engine drone under hard acceleration remains, but the way that the drivetrain switches between gas, electric or a combination of the two for propulsion is impressively seamless.
Or here:
It rides well and is generally quiet save for some occasional buzzing from the engine when flooring it
And here:
Aside from the mushiness of its standard continuously variable automatic transmission versus the conventional model's eight-speed automatic, it's almost impossible to tell you're driving a hybrid.

This is one of the better modern CVTs. Seeing as how I'm often doing steep climbs and/or passing on two lane roads in the mountains, I can do without the droning and over-revving. Even with my crappy hearing eliminating much of the droning, I can still feel the engine revving unnecessarily. I've been driving Subaru boxer engines for the past 31 years and the engines themselves aren't the smoothest/quietest in the world, never mind the effect of a CVT.

So, maybe in another generation or two CVTs will eliminate the negatives that have long been associated with them. They are getting better, but they still aren't there yet. Subaru's been using them extensively, and (to my sorrow) eliminating sticks from their lineup, including the Forester. I think only the Impreza/Crosstrek still offers one. As I intend my next car to be a ZEV, giving up a stick will be the price I'll have to pay, so I'll need to be able to control regen to keep myself engaged.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Titanium48
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Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Subaru Crosstrek PHEV

Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:37 pm

Holding the engine at the most efficient speed for the amount of power requested is the whole point of a CVT. If you floor it, it will spin the engine up to the maximum power speed. For the Subaru 2.5, that's 5700-5800 RPM. If you don't want the engine to spin up that fast, don't push so hard on the gas.

I used to drive a manual Outback, but now I have the CVT. Top gear in the manual had the engine over 3000 RPM constantly at highway speed. The CVT brings that closer to 2000 RPM under light loads. The manual had an annoying flat spot between second and third - while pulling a trailer up a steep hill, I'd hit the redline in second, but then start slowing down after shifting to third. The CVT pegs the engine at 5700 RPM while pulling steep hills, so I get all 174 hp regardless of speed and I can always go as fast as the available power will allow. The only real drawback is starting from a stop, where it becomes obvious that it is a slushbox, and the lowest available ratio isn't quite low enough, as I have to get to 35 km/h before the engine gets into the 4000s and really starts to pull. Even that isn't such a big deal now that I have a Leaf as a city car and the Outback is mostly driven on long highway trips.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Subaru Crosstrek PHEV

Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:18 pm

Holding the engine at the most efficient speed for the amount of power requested is the whole point of a CVT. If you floor it, it will spin the engine up to the maximum power speed. For the Subaru 2.5, that's 5700-5800 RPM. If you don't want the engine to spin up that fast, don't push so hard on the gas.
Egg-cisely. We are used to setups that waste some gas and behave a certain way doing it. A CVT with more than one mode can let you choose if you want efficiency or familiarity.
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GRA
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Re: Subaru Crosstrek PHEV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:46 pm

Titanium48 wrote:Holding the engine at the most efficient speed for the amount of power requested is the whole point of a CVT. If you floor it, it will spin the engine up to the maximum power speed. For the Subaru 2.5, that's 5700-5800 RPM. If you don't want the engine to spin up that fast, don't push so hard on the gas.

I used to drive a manual Outback, but now I have the CVT.
What years/generations? 5 or 6 speed stick? I don't tow so that's not an issue for me, and have never felt the lack of the right gear you describe in my Subarus (but have in other cars), nor do I need to push the engine over about 3,500 or at most 4,000 for climbing, given the flattish torque curve of a boxer (the SOHC EJ251 engine in my Forester's torque peak is at 4,400, max. power's at 5,600). My 2003 (1st year of the 2nd Gen) Forester has a 5-speed, and it's fine. It has essentially the same powertrain as the 1st gen. Forester, but IIRR a couple of the lower gear ratios were shortened slightly owing to the newer gen's heavier weight, to give it the same off-the line accel.

Here's an article by someone at Jalopnik who obviously share's my feelings re manuals and automatics:
Perhaps The Future Of Subaru’s Manual Transmission Isn’t So Bleak After All
https://jalopnik.com/perhaps-the-future ... 1823645963

Of course, this refers to Subaru's performance-oriented cars (BRZ, WRX, STI) rather than their utility-oriented cars.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Subaru Crosstrek PHEV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:41 pm

Before my Leaf I would never have a bought or leased a new car with an automatic. Now I'd have to be affluent enough to buy two cars to get one with a manual, but because I don't like ICEs anymore...
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Titanium48
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Re: Subaru Crosstrek PHEV

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:05 pm

GRA wrote: What years/generations? 5 or 6 speed stick? I don't tow so that's not an issue for me, and have never felt the lack of the right gear you describe in my Subarus (but have in other cars), nor do I need to push the engine over about 3,500 or at most 4,000 for climbing, given the flattish torque curve of a boxer (the SOHC EJ251 engine in my Forester's torque peak is at 4,400, max. power's at 5,600). My 2003 (1st year of the 2nd Gen) Forester has a 5-speed, and it's fine. It has essentially the same powertrain as the 1st gen. Forester, but IIRR a couple of the lower gear ratios were shortened slightly owing to the newer gen's heavier weight, to give it the same off-the line accel.
I had a 2005 (gen 3) 5-speed, now have a 2014 (gen 4) CVT. I test drove a 2015 6-speed before buying the CVT, the extra gear brought the top gear RPM down a little bit, but mostly just squished the 4th, 5th and 6th ratios closer together and didn't fix the 2nd to 3rd gap. I also found first gear a bit too tall for pulling up boat launches in the '05, and the '14 had a similar 1st gear ratio. The CVT is pretty slow in that situation too, but at least you don't need to worry about burning the clutch when you have the engine revved to 2000 RPM to get the torque you need.

I can see how you would never have run into these issues if you don't tow things. When not towing, the '05 had plenty of power to pull the steepest hills in 3rd, and the only time I recall the CVT pushing the engine above 4200 RPM with cruise control engaged was when climbing an 8% grade at 120 km/h.

Before the CVT, I used to only drive manual transmissions because I couldn't stand the slow, inefficient, unresponsive slushboxes that only had 3 or 4 gears. The CVT fixes those problems at higher speeds, but is still "slushy" at slow speeds. Electric motors take things up another level with maximum torque instantly available from a standing start. Driving stick was fun and I don't know why the old crappy automatic transmissions were so popular, but that era has passed (at least for me anyways). I'll be looking for a PHEV that completely decouples the ICE at low speeds when it is time to replace the Outback, or a BEV if 200 kWh of batteries are affordable and 200+ kW chargers are everywhere by then.

Valdemar
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Re: Subaru Crosstrek PHEV

Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:42 pm

I picked a used 6sp 2010 Turbo Legacy GT not long time ago, that's my car for the next 5 years, unlike Teslas, these are a rare sight in my neck of the woods :)

I don't feel the Crosstrek PHEV will appeal to Subaru crowd, being too expensive with compromized cargo is basically a non starter.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

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LeftieBiker
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Re: Subaru Crosstrek PHEV

Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:43 am

They are trying to expand the "Subaru crowd" rather than give it more of the same. They must lose a lot of sales to Toyota.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Valdemar
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Re: Subaru Crosstrek PHEV

Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:50 am

Don't know if this vehicle is a good strategy for such an expansion. But sure, something is better than nothing.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

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