IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

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GRA

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https://insideevs.com/news/347324/vw-batteries-last-life-electric-car/

VW To Guarantee 70% Battery Capacity For 8 Years Or 160,000 km. . . .

The battery pack is expected to last as long as the cars. Because cars are generally used a lot longer than eight years, we assume that the base scenario is to use the original batteries as long as possible, despite gradual capacity fade, to the point when the car is too old/costly to maintain. . . .
 
GRA said:
https://insideevs.com/news/347324/vw-batteries-last-life-electric-car/

VW To Guarantee 70% Battery Capacity For 8 Years Or 160,000 km. . . .

The battery pack is expected to last as long as the cars. Because cars are generally used a lot longer than eight years, we assume that the base scenario is to use the original batteries as long as possible, despite gradual capacity fade, to the point when the car is too old/costly to maintain. . . .

I’m surprised to see EV drivers making fun of this warranty. The expense for an EV is front loaded and a long useful service life with low maintenance costs is what makes an EV cost competitive with ICE. The battery is the most expensive part of an EV and early degradation is a risk.

To me it shows some faith in the durability of their battery chemistry and design including thermal management and charging strategy to offer such a capacity warranty.

The LEAF battery capacity experience is not lost on me and has made me hesitant about purchasing an expensive EV.

I have been considering Tesla, Jaguar and Audi only because they offered a similarly useful warranty that would insure the financial viability of the purchase. I am pleased to see EV makers coalescing around this norm.

No such remedy exists for our Ford C-Max Energi that after 45K miles and 5 years has lost more than 50% of its battery capacity. I would think early adopters would welcome a trend toward better battery capacity warranties.
 
It will be interesting to see VW transition from their long tradition of making press-releases about electric cars, to actually making electric cars.
 
I consider a 30% degradation by year 8 to be piss poor but the thing that is particularly nasty is that an owner may find themselves at that performance well before 8 years. So these companies are really saying that a consumer has to buy a battery capacity 1/0.7 = 1.43x larger than their expected use profile.

So e.g., if a consumer has to have 100 EPA mile range and lives in 4 season climate where a 30% range penalty can be expected during bad weather then the EV range required is ~ 200 miles. An aggressive driver who expends 20% more energy per distance than the EPA test would require an 200/0.8 = 250 miles.

A consumer who wants to road trip at 70 - 75 mph:
150 mile EPA range
30% weather allowance
20% higher speed allowance
30% degradation allowance
> 382 EPA mile range car.

It really does add up for non Tesla EVs, and that is only looking out 8 years.
 
I consider a 30% degradation by year 8 to be piss poor but the thing that is particularly nasty is that an owner may find themselves at that performance well before 8 years. So these companies are really saying that a consumer has to buy a battery capacity 1/0.7 = 1.43x larger than their expected use profile.

So e.g., if a consumer has to have 100 EPA mile range and lives in 4 season climate where a 30% range penalty can be expected during bad weather then the EV range required is ~ 200 miles. An aggressive driver who expends 20% more energy per distance than the EPA test would require an 200/0.8 = 250 miles.

Exactly. When I see the 8 year Leaf capacity warranty happily quoted, I think about having to drive it for maybe 4-5 years with less Winter range than I need, just to restart the process with a new pack. No, thanks.

I’m surprised to see EV drivers making fun of this warranty. The expense for an EV is front loaded and a long useful service life with low maintenance costs is what makes an EV cost competitive with ICE. The battery is the most expensive part of an EV and early degradation is a risk.

Nissan has played enough games with their capacity warranty (including not originally offering one at all) that many of us are a little...skeptical. Also, see above.
 
When they list the warranty in miles on the EV parked for sale in the lot I’ll take a look.

Kms mean nothing here
 
The 8 year/100,000 mile battery capacity (70%) warranty is NOT new. My 2015 eGolf has it.
 
smkettner said:
I expect 20 years and 300,000 miles retaining 80% capacity before "lasts life of the car" statement is used.

Many modern ICEVs can hardly make it to half that time before ending up in a junkyard, particularly if it has a CVT.
 
RonDawg said:
smkettner said:
I expect 20 years and 300,000 miles retaining 80% capacity before "lasts life of the car" statement is used.

Many modern ICEVs can hardly make it to half that time before ending up in a junkyard, particularly if it has a CVT.
I would not buy those cars either.

No CVT or any transmission is a definite plus for EVs. My 2001 F150 transmission (4r70w) still going great at 200,000 miles.
 
More and more ICEV and hybrid cars are getting CVT's as time passes. So you may not have much choice in the future if you don't want a CVT, and even going to a manual is increasingly becoming difficult in the US.

But even if it doesn't...modern cars are not designed to be easily and cheaply repaired. The reason many are going to junkyards in surprisingly good shape otherwise is because something is broken and costs more to fix than the car is worth.
 
smkettner said:
I expect 20 years and 300,000 miles retaining 80% capacity before "lasts life of the car" statement is used.

Why not 99 years and 5 billion miles retaining 99.99% of capacity? At minimum, of course.
 
Nubo said:
Regular miles, or "Phoenix miles"(tm)? :lol:

Or we might ask if a battery that far outlives the car is a realistic requirement. Might it be more economical to produce a battery that lasts just about a long as the rest of the car? Sometimes longer, sometimes not?

Or a kingpin, for that matter. Ask Henry Ford.
 
WetEV said:
smkettner said:
I expect 20 years and 300,000 miles retaining 80% capacity before "lasts life of the car" statement is used.

Why not 99 years and 5 billion miles retaining 99.99% of capacity? At minimum, of course.
Because I am just looking for something comparable.

What is your point except to troll the issue?
 
smkettner said:
WetEV said:
smkettner said:
I expect 20 years and 300,000 miles retaining 80% capacity before "lasts life of the car" statement is used.

Why not 99 years and 5 billion miles retaining 99.99% of capacity? At minimum, of course.
Because I am just looking for something comparable.

What is your point except to troll the issue?

Comparable to what?

Economics. Making batteries that far outlive the car doesn't add value, and adds cost.
 
WetEV said:
Comparable to what?
He said a reliable ICE, which to him (and me) is 20 years and ~ 300k miles.
That is what I expect from my Tesla.

A LEAF is more along the lines of 5 - 8 years although cool climates do better.
 
SageBrush said:
WetEV said:
Comparable to what?
He said a reliable ICE, which to him (and me) is 20 years and ~ 300k miles.
That is what I expect from my Tesla.

A LEAF is more along the lines of 5 - 8 years although cool climates do better.
Yes, the 2011 to early 2013 LEAF would be along the lines of 5 - 8 years or more. And of course, Nissan hasn't made any newer LEAFs since then, with improved chemistry and larger batteries. Right. Larger batteries will extend useful life, even if they lose capacity as the same percentage rate as a smaller battery.

A Tesla isn't a good bet, due to other reliability issues. Consumer Reports rates Model X as the worst, Model 3 as below average. Model S 2013, 2015 and 2016 are the best years for the Model S, with average reliability.

CR said:
Model X SUV. Filled with enough gee-whiz gizmos to give William Gibson a thrill, the X seemingly sacrifices practicality and pragmatism for the purpose of showboating.

Nissan LEAF is rated at average reliability, however some years are higher and lower. 2016 is the worst, 2017, 2013 and 2011 are the best.

If 20+ year reliability is your goal, you shouldn't buy an electric car. Yet.
 
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