SageBrush
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Thu May 02, 2019 10:50 am

WetEV wrote: A Tesla isn't a good bet, due to other reliability issues..
The issues, such as they are, are not a barrier to longevity.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

KeiJidosha
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Thu May 02, 2019 11:30 am

smkettner wrote:
RonDawg wrote:
smkettner wrote:I expect 20 years and 300,000 miles retaining 80% capacity before "lasts life of the car" statement is used.
Many modern ICEVs can hardly make it to half that time before ending up in a junkyard, particularly if it has a CVT.
I would not buy those cars either.

No CVT or any transmission is a definite plus for EVs. My 2001 F150 transmission (4r70w) still going great at 200,000 miles.
As a former Murano owner, I'm with you that a mecanical CVT is a wear item. But Hybrid EVs are mostly of the eCVT variety and I see them as less problematic than the mecanical belt CVT used in ICE applications like the Murano.
http://www.winnipegsynthetics.ca/articl ... -ecvt.html
http://www.lemonlawcase.com/problem-veh ... -problems/
I see the single speed transaxel in most BEVs as a plus to simplicity and longevity.
- 2009 BMW MINI E > 2013 Honda Fit EV > 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
- 2013 Ford C-Max Energi > 2020 Jaguar I-Pace HSE

SageBrush
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Thu May 02, 2019 12:56 pm

KeiJidosha wrote:[ But Hybrid EVs are mostly of the eCVT variety
Yep.

Night and day difference in implementation; the only reason they are grouped together is because neither have discreet gears.
The ICE CVT is a mechanical device, the hybrid one (at least in the Toyota which I am most familiar with) is electric.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Thu May 02, 2019 1:04 pm

Honda used a mechanical CVT in the Civic HX, which wasn't a hybrid, just geared toward fuel economy. I think the Civic Hybrid CVT retained it.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GRA
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Thu May 02, 2019 3:55 pm

SageBrush wrote:I consider a 30% degradation by year 8 to be piss poor but the thing that is particularly nasty is that an owner may find themselves at that performance well before 8 years. So these companies are really saying that a consumer has to buy a battery capacity 1/0.7 = 1.43x larger than their expected use profile.

So e.g., if a consumer has to have 100 EPA mile range and lives in 4 season climate where a 30% range penalty can be expected during bad weather then the EV range required is ~ 200 miles. An aggressive driver who expends 20% more energy per distance than the EPA test would require an 200/0.8 = 250 miles.

A consumer who wants to road trip at 70 - 75 mph:
150 mile EPA range
30% weather allowance
20% higher speed allowance
30% degradation allowance
> 382 EPA mile range car.

It really does add up for non Tesla EVs, and that is only looking out 8 years.
I'm unclear on how a Tesla is any different. I'd have to make the same allowances for any BEV; indeed, I've made such calcs for a variety of BEVs including some Teslas that I've considered (and rejected, for lack of range/longevity). The only advantage that Teslas have at this time is that the more expensive models start with greater range than other companies' products. Does Tesla even offer a capacity warranty yet?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

KeiJidosha
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Thu May 02, 2019 4:39 pm

GRA wrote:... Does Tesla even offer a capacity warranty yet?
It seems they do. From their website;

https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty

"Model 3 - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.

Model 3 with Long-Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period."
- 2009 BMW MINI E > 2013 Honda Fit EV > 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
- 2013 Ford C-Max Energi > 2020 Jaguar I-Pace HSE

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Thu May 02, 2019 4:42 pm

KeiJidosha wrote:
GRA wrote:... Does Tesla even offer a capacity warranty yet?
It seems they do. From their website;

https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty

"Model 3 - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.

Model 3 with Long-Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period."
Thanks. IIRR they used to just warranty the battery for the usual failures, but not capacity. I wonder if they introduced this with the Model 3, or earlier on the S/X?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

KeiJidosha
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Fri May 03, 2019 12:40 pm

GRA wrote:Thanks. IIRR they used to just warranty the battery for the usual failures, but not capacity. I wonder if they introduced this with the Model 3, or earlier on the S/X?
Based on these older articles, I think you are correct that this has evolved over time.

https://insideevs.com/news/335364/tesla ... guarantee/
“The battery retention portion of the warranty differs from that of the Model S and X. Neither of those Tesla carry a retention guarantee, nor does Tesla list degradation from battery usage as part of the Model S & X warranty. “

https://www.plugincars.com/what-you-nee ... 32884.html
“The second camp specifically excludes capacity from its warranty. Those automakers include Fiat, Ford and Tesla. (Take note that Tesla’s warranty covers unlimited miles.)”
- 2009 BMW MINI E > 2013 Honda Fit EV > 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
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GerryAZ
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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Sun May 05, 2019 8:55 pm

As others have already mentioned, I will look at what VW has to say about EVs when I can look at actual VW electric cars on dealer lots in Arizona. All manufacturers need to quit claiming their batteries will last the life of the car if they only expect batteries to last 8 years or 100,000 miles.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
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