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Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:50 am
by SageBrush
WetEV wrote: A Tesla isn't a good bet, due to other reliability issues..
The issues, such as they are, are not a barrier to longevity.

Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 11:30 am
by KeiJidosha
smkettner wrote:
RonDawg wrote:
smkettner wrote:I expect 20 years and 300,000 miles retaining 80% capacity before "lasts life of the car" statement is used.
Many modern ICEVs can hardly make it to half that time before ending up in a junkyard, particularly if it has a CVT.
I would not buy those cars either.

No CVT or any transmission is a definite plus for EVs. My 2001 F150 transmission (4r70w) still going great at 200,000 miles.
As a former Murano owner, I'm with you that a mecanical CVT is a wear item. But Hybrid EVs are mostly of the eCVT variety and I see them as less problematic than the mecanical belt CVT used in ICE applications like the Murano.
http://www.winnipegsynthetics.ca/articl ... -ecvt.html
http://www.lemonlawcase.com/problem-veh ... -problems/
I see the single speed transaxel in most BEVs as a plus to simplicity and longevity.

Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 12:56 pm
by SageBrush
KeiJidosha wrote:[ But Hybrid EVs are mostly of the eCVT variety
Yep.

Night and day difference in implementation; the only reason they are grouped together is because neither have discreet gears.
The ICE CVT is a mechanical device, the hybrid one (at least in the Toyota which I am most familiar with) is electric.

Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 1:04 pm
by LeftieBiker
Honda used a mechanical CVT in the Civic HX, which wasn't a hybrid, just geared toward fuel economy. I think the Civic Hybrid CVT retained it.

Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 3:55 pm
by GRA
SageBrush wrote:I consider a 30% degradation by year 8 to be piss poor but the thing that is particularly nasty is that an owner may find themselves at that performance well before 8 years. So these companies are really saying that a consumer has to buy a battery capacity 1/0.7 = 1.43x larger than their expected use profile.

So e.g., if a consumer has to have 100 EPA mile range and lives in 4 season climate where a 30% range penalty can be expected during bad weather then the EV range required is ~ 200 miles. An aggressive driver who expends 20% more energy per distance than the EPA test would require an 200/0.8 = 250 miles.

A consumer who wants to road trip at 70 - 75 mph:
150 mile EPA range
30% weather allowance
20% higher speed allowance
30% degradation allowance
> 382 EPA mile range car.

It really does add up for non Tesla EVs, and that is only looking out 8 years.
I'm unclear on how a Tesla is any different. I'd have to make the same allowances for any BEV; indeed, I've made such calcs for a variety of BEVs including some Teslas that I've considered (and rejected, for lack of range/longevity). The only advantage that Teslas have at this time is that the more expensive models start with greater range than other companies' products. Does Tesla even offer a capacity warranty yet?

Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 4:39 pm
by KeiJidosha
GRA wrote:... Does Tesla even offer a capacity warranty yet?
It seems they do. From their website;

https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty

"Model 3 - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.

Model 3 with Long-Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period."

Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 4:42 pm
by GRA
KeiJidosha wrote:
GRA wrote:... Does Tesla even offer a capacity warranty yet?
It seems they do. From their website;

https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty

"Model 3 - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.

Model 3 with Long-Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period."
Thanks. IIRR they used to just warranty the battery for the usual failures, but not capacity. I wonder if they introduced this with the Model 3, or earlier on the S/X?

Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Posted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:40 pm
by KeiJidosha
GRA wrote:Thanks. IIRR they used to just warranty the battery for the usual failures, but not capacity. I wonder if they introduced this with the Model 3, or earlier on the S/X?
Based on these older articles, I think you are correct that this has evolved over time.

https://insideevs.com/news/335364/tesla ... guarantee/
“The battery retention portion of the warranty differs from that of the Model S and X. Neither of those Tesla carry a retention guarantee, nor does Tesla list degradation from battery usage as part of the Model S & X warranty. “

https://www.plugincars.com/what-you-nee ... 32884.html
“The second camp specifically excludes capacity from its warranty. Those automakers include Fiat, Ford and Tesla. (Take note that Tesla’s warranty covers unlimited miles.)”

Re: IEVS: Volkswagen: Our Electric Car Batteries Last The Life Of The Car

Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 8:55 pm
by GerryAZ
As others have already mentioned, I will look at what VW has to say about EVs when I can look at actual VW electric cars on dealer lots in Arizona. All manufacturers need to quit claiming their batteries will last the life of the car if they only expect batteries to last 8 years or 100,000 miles.