SageBrush
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: IEVS: Tesla Model 3 & Audi e-tron Charging At IONITY Side By Side: Video

Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:30 pm

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:^^ I think that the Model Y will be a close comparison vehicle (though not in price. The e-tron is *expensive*.) Take the Model 3 graph and discount about 10%.

That aside, the graph was originally produced to expose the fallacy of Audi's claims that ~ 150 kW charging with a late taper is superior to the Tesla network. Look at the kWh added vs time
the "no knowledge necessary" approach that Audi is using
What are you talking about ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 10888
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: IEVS: Tesla Model 3 & Audi e-tron Charging At IONITY Side By Side: Video

Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:54 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:^^ I think that the Model Y will be a close comparison vehicle (though not in price. The e-tron is *expensive*.) Take the Model 3 graph and discount about 10%.

That aside, the graph was originally produced to expose the fallacy of Audi's claims that ~ 150 kW charging with a late taper is superior to the Tesla network. Look at the kWh added vs time
the "no knowledge necessary" approach that Audi is using
What are you talking about ?
Whenever we have a newbie come in here, we have to explain to them that the charge rate will taper, that it may or may not be worth QCing beyond 80%, depending on the price/kWh or minute, blah blah blah.

This is on top of telling newbies that for longevity it's best if they keep the SoC between X and Y%, (with the inevitable extended discussion about what the values of X and Y should be), that you probably don't want to go below Z% on a regular basis, that if you charge to 100% you shouldn't leave it there for any length of time especially if the temp is over T degrees and it's best to avoid using it if you don't have to, unless you need to do it to balance the cells, yada, yada, yada. It can be intimidating, and whether it is or not, that level of knowledge shouldn't be necessary for members of the general public who just want to use the car, not take an exam in battery care and maintenance. Early adopters are willing and usually interested enough to learn all that, but the mass market isn't.

Compare that to an ICE: fill it up, run it down as much as you want and then repeat; that's it. Audi's approach is "you will gain about X kWh/miles of range every minute of charge regardless of your starting and ending SoC; feel free to use the entire SoC range". This is essentially the same as the liquid-fueled ICEs everyone's used to. Which is simpler? Which is preferable?

People shouldn't need to know a secret handshake just to use the car to its max. capability and have their battery last a reasonable length of time.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: IEVS: Tesla Model 3 & Audi e-tron Charging At IONITY Side By Side: Video

Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:01 pm

You still haven't explained how Audi is making charging easier than it is for people who just plug their Leaf or Bolt in every night (or every week) and don't worry about the rest.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
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Location: NM

Re: IEVS: Tesla Model 3 & Audi e-tron Charging At IONITY Side By Side: Video

Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:47 pm

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote: the "no knowledge necessary" approach that Audi is using
What are you talking about ?
Whenever we have a newbie come in here
You are putting way too much importance into your vicarious reading of a LEAF forum dedicated to the care and feeding of dumb cars with crap batteries.

The future is the way Tesla cars operate today: an owner plugs them in when convenient and pretty much forgets about the battery SoC; or the car directs the driver to a FAST charger and tells them when to leave based on the destination. The car optimizes the charging routine. To own a Tesla today is to already be more passenger than driver, and the driver aspect is receding fast. Only geeks care about the miles per minute charging; everybody else are happy to know that they have a 10 minute charging break coming up in x minutes and that is it.

Too abstract ? Lets compare ICE with a decent EV:
ICE: the car beeps at the owner to get fuel "soon." People then get stranded.
EV: the driver/passenger tells the car the destination and the car arranges charging stops as required.
Last edited by SageBrush on Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 10888
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: IEVS: Tesla Model 3 & Audi e-tron Charging At IONITY Side By Side: Video

Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:57 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote: What are you talking about ?
Whenever we have a newbie come in here
You are putting way too much importance into your vicarious reading of a LEAF forum dedicated to the care and feeding of dumb cars with crap batteries.

The future is the way Tesla cars operate today: an owner plugs them in when convenient and pretty much forgets about the battery SoC; or the car directs the driver to a FAST charger and tells them when to leave based on the destination. The car optimizes the charging routine.
Uh huh:
3 Ways To Ruin Your Tesla Battery, Plus What It Costs To Replace It
https://insideevs.com/news/339193/3-way ... eplace-it/

I could also point to the LA-Vegas shuttle service who killed the first battery in their high mileage Tesla by repeatedly charging it to 100% while hot, etc. Tesla batteries aren't magic.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Posts: 4754
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: IEVS: Tesla Model 3 & Audi e-tron Charging At IONITY Side By Side: Video

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:31 pm

I can see how a Tesla might appear like magic to you. Ask for a ride sometime.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 10888
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: IEVS: Tesla Model 3 & Audi e-tron Charging At IONITY Side By Side: Video

Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:50 pm

SageBrush wrote:I can see how a Tesla might appear like magic to you. Ask for a ride sometime.
Unless it can get me where I'm going quicker and more conveniently, it isn't magic no matter how it's powered, and as noted, its energy source definitely is not magic, but subject to the same issues that other batteries face. Having a liquid-cooled TMS is undoubtedly a better approach than not having one in many if not most conditions, but only reduces rather than eliminates the issues. Employing an over-sized battery and then limiting its usable SoC as Audi is doing, is another approach, inefficient and expensive but simple for the user.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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