IEVS: Tesla Model 3 & Audi e-tron Charging At IONITY Side By Side: Video

https://insideevs.com/news/354195/tesla-model-3-audi-e-tron-charging/
Bjorn Nyland tested them. Short version, M3 charges at higher rate up to about 50% SoC, but e-Tron holds high rate throughout with much less taper, and was charging more than twice as fast as M3 at/above 80% SoC. I believe this sort of charging with little taper will be very important for road trips and mass-market acceptance, even though it employs a brute force approach by oversizing the battery. The Model 3 is of course, much more efficient than the e-Tron, and the article's author hopes that the test is repeated with a Mod X instead of M3, as that's a much more comparable vehicle to the e-Tron than the Model 3 is. As Bjorn happens to own a Model X. . . .

Superchargers are spaced at ~ 150 mile intervals (although terrain is taken into account.) My driving at 65 - 70 mph works out to 12 minute stops if they were Ionity; a bit more for V2 Superchargers, a bit less for V3 Superchargers.

SageBrush said:

Superchargers are spaced at ~ 150 mile intervals (although terrain is taken into account.) My driving at 65 - 70 mph works out to 12 minute stops if they were Ionity; a bit more for V2 Superchargers, a bit less for V3 Superchargers.

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If you were driving the interstates at the 75 or 80 mph speed limit (or 5 miles above, which is the typical free-flowing traffic speed) in most western states, what kind of stop length would you have to do those 150 mile +- legs?

GRA said:

SageBrush said:

Superchargers are spaced at ~ 150 mile intervals (although terrain is taken into account.) My driving at 65 - 70 mph works out to 12 minute stops if they were Ionity; a bit more for V2 Superchargers, a bit less for V3 Superchargers.

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If you were driving the interstates at ... ...

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Easy enough for you to figure out all by yourself. The CdA of my car is 0.5 m*m, ~ 140 kW marginal charging rate in the 55% -- 65% SoC band

I'm going to jump in and say that since it appears that Tesla has started to make Model 3 available for lease and just glancing at the lease numbers there is no doubt in my mind that the Leaf and Leaf Plus are not worth their price tag. By far.

As for Audi I would definitely hold on until they blow up a few cars and work out their bugs.

Yes, but you forgot the most important line in the story--model 3 increases range faster than any other BEV. So it is still ahead in amount of time needed for charging.

A graph I made and posted on TMC (original data from a Bjorn Nyland video):

Useful graph, but since the two vehicles are completely different types of car with little likelihood of cross-shopping, we still need to see the Mod. X vs. e-Tron.

^^ I think that the Model Y will be a close comparison vehicle (though not in price. The e-tron is *expensive*.) Take the Model 3 graph and discount about 10%.

That aside, the graph was originally produced to expose the fallacy of Audi's claims that ~ 150 kW charging with a late taper is superior to the Tesla network. Look at the kWh added vs time

SageBrush said:

^^ I think that the Model Y will be a close comparison vehicle (though not in price. The e-tron is *expensive*.) Take the Model 3 graph and discount about 10%.

That aside, the graph was originally produced to expose the fallacy of Audi's claims that ~ 150 kW charging with a late taper is superior to the Tesla network. Look at the kWh added vs time

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Just depends on your needs. I happen to think that for the average consumer, the "no knowledge necessary" approach that Audi is using is the way to go, as it allows them to treat the battery like it was a gas tank - just fill it up every time and take it down to your reserve.

GRA said:

SageBrush said:

^^ I think that the Model Y will be a close comparison vehicle (though not in price. The e-tron is *expensive*.) Take the Model 3 graph and discount about 10%.

That aside, the graph was originally produced to expose the fallacy of Audi's claims that ~ 150 kW charging with a late taper is superior to the Tesla network. Look at the kWh added vs time

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the "no knowledge necessary" approach that Audi is using

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What are you talking about ?

SageBrush said:

GRA said:

SageBrush said:

^^ I think that the Model Y will be a close comparison vehicle (though not in price. The e-tron is *expensive*.) Take the Model 3 graph and discount about 10%.

That aside, the graph was originally produced to expose the fallacy of Audi's claims that ~ 150 kW charging with a late taper is superior to the Tesla network. Look at the kWh added vs time

Click to expand...

the "no knowledge necessary" approach that Audi is using

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What are you talking about ?

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Whenever we have a newbie come in here, we have to explain to them that the charge rate will taper, that it may or may not be worth QCing beyond 80%, depending on the price/kWh or minute, blah blah blah.

This is on top of telling newbies that for longevity it's best if they keep the SoC between X and Y%, (with the inevitable extended discussion about what the values of X and Y should be), that you probably don't want to go below Z% on a regular basis, that if you charge to 100% you shouldn't leave it there for any length of time especially if the temp is over T degrees and it's best to avoid using it if you don't have to, unless you need to do it to balance the cells, yada, yada, yada. It can be intimidating, and whether it is or not, that level of knowledge shouldn't be necessary for members of the general public who just want to use the car, not take an exam in battery care and maintenance. Early adopters are willing and usually interested enough to learn all that, but the mass market isn't.

Compare that to an ICE: fill it up, run it down as much as you want and then repeat; that's it. Audi's approach is "you will gain about X kWh/miles of range every minute of charge regardless of your starting and ending SoC; feel free to use the entire SoC range". This is essentially the same as the liquid-fueled ICEs everyone's used to. Which is simpler? Which is preferable?

People shouldn't need to know a secret handshake just to use the car to its max. capability and have their battery last a reasonable length of time.

You still haven't explained how Audi is making charging easier than it is for people who just plug their Leaf or Bolt in every night (or every week) and don't worry about the rest.

GRA said:

SageBrush said:

GRA said:

the "no knowledge necessary" approach that Audi is using

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What are you talking about ?

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Whenever we have a newbie come in here

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You are putting way too much importance into your vicarious reading of a LEAF forum dedicated to the care and feeding of dumb cars with crap batteries.

The future is the way Tesla cars operate today: an owner plugs them in when convenient and pretty much forgets about the battery SoC; or the car directs the driver to a FAST charger and tells them when to leave based on the destination. The car optimizes the charging routine. To own a Tesla today is to already be more passenger than driver, and the driver aspect is receding fast. Only geeks care about the miles per minute charging; everybody else are happy to know that they have a 10 minute charging break coming up in x minutes and that is it.

Too abstract ? Lets compare ICE with a decent EV:
ICE: the car beeps at the owner to get fuel "soon." People then get stranded.
EV: the driver/passenger tells the car the destination and the car arranges charging stops as required.

SageBrush said:

GRA said:

SageBrush said:

What are you talking about ?

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Whenever we have a newbie come in here

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You are putting way too much importance into your vicarious reading of a LEAF forum dedicated to the care and feeding of dumb cars with crap batteries.

The future is the way Tesla cars operate today: an owner plugs them in when convenient and pretty much forgets about the battery SoC; or the car directs the driver to a FAST charger and tells them when to leave based on the destination. The car optimizes the charging routine.

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Uh huh:

3 Ways To Ruin Your Tesla Battery, Plus What It Costs To Replace It

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https://insideevs.com/news/339193/3...sla-battery-plus-what-it-costs-to-replace-it/

I could also point to the LA-Vegas shuttle service who killed the first battery in their high mileage Tesla by repeatedly charging it to 100% while hot, etc. Tesla batteries aren't magic.

I can see how a Tesla might appear like magic to you. Ask for a ride sometime.

SageBrush said:

I can see how a Tesla might appear like magic to you. Ask for a ride sometime.

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Unless it can get me where I'm going quicker and more conveniently, it isn't magic no matter how it's powered, and as noted, its energy source definitely is not magic, but subject to the same issues that other batteries face. Having a liquid-cooled TMS is undoubtedly a better approach than not having one in many if not most conditions, but only reduces rather than eliminates the issues. Employing an over-sized battery and then limiting its usable SoC as Audi is doing, is another approach, inefficient and expensive but simple for the user.