GRA
Posts: 12273
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Auto dimming mirrors

Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:58 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:36 am
frontrangeleaf wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:00 am
Wiper controls are a solved problem. No need to put them on the touchscreen at all. The touchscreen is a mix of genuine innovation, some novelty with little or no real world value, and giant leaps backward in ergonomics.

Not a fan overall.

-b
Completely agree. My Model S wiper stalk, sourced from a Mercedes supplier from what I've read, works fine. I can't fathom why they had to use a less functional one on the Model 3/Y — just to be clever? Voice commands are ok but they don't work at all in areas of poor cell (AT&T) reception IME and they take a lot more thought/distraction to use than twisting a wiper stalk.

Indeed. At no time while turning my wipers on/off or adjusting the interval when intermittent, without giving the action more than the slightest thought or a single glance have I ever said to myself "Gee, this would be so much quicker, less distracting and use fewer mental cycles if it were on a touchscreen and/or voice or rain-activated.

I have the same attitude towards auto-dimming mirrors, another expensive 'solution' in search of a problem. Are there really drivers who find it just too complicated or taxing to reach a hand up and flip a lever, requiring maybe one second, no need to look away from the road, and essentially zero thought to accomplish?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

goldbrick
Posts: 959
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:33 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Aug 2017
Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:06 pm

I'm one. I love my auto-dimming mirror and I'm glad I have it every time I drive at night, especially in the winter. It is truly auto-dimming so if someone pulls up behind me I don't have to flip it over, and then flip it back after they pass. It's inexpensive, works very reliably and makes my night time commutes much more pleasant. It is by far the best upgrade I have made to my Leaf.

GRA
Posts: 12273
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:24 pm

To each their own. As I drive a stick by choice I'm probably less impressed than most by the desire to automate simple functions that can easily and cheaply be done mechanically, particularly since I buy for the long term, which includes the need to allow for the cost of repair/replacement.

Any piece of equipment not on the car will never require either, so it has to provide a large improvement in capability vs. the simple, cheap, reliable version to be worth it. Auto-dimming mirrors and wiper and other controls on touchscreens used while driving fail that test - they are at best unnecessary gimmicks, at worst dangerous. Seeing as how Tesla also puts fart noises on the touchscreen, calling this and similar distractions unnecessary gimmicks seems charitable.

When you say it's inexpensive, how much did it cost, and what will it cost to repair or replace when it eventually fails? Or do you not keep cars long enough for that to be an issue?

My current car came with an auto-dimming mirror, along with an electronic compass and its display integrated into the mirror frame. It was part of a trim package, so I don't know what it cost; if I could have ordered the items separately I would have skipped it. I had the dealer swap it out for a manual mirror (no charge). Not because I wasn't willing to put up with the auto-dimming, although it was a needless complication, but because the mirror frame extended about 1/2"-3/4" lower with the compass display/mirror sensor than the manual mirror. It blocked my view to the right front, especially when the car was nose down such as exiting a driveway, forcing me to bob and weave like Cassius Clay before he changed his name to Muhammad Ali, just to see around it.

Aside from being unsafe it would have been a constant irritation to deal with it for what's now been 17.5 years, and I've never regretted the swap. The compass at least provided some extra capability that might have been useful once or twice, but it wasn't worth putting up with the reduced safety/extra hassle.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:13 pm

I hear that Professor Moriarty uses an auto-dimming mirror...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:55 pm

GRA wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:24 pm
Auto-dimming mirrors
...

When you say it's inexpensive, how much did it cost, and what will it cost to repair or replace when it eventually fails? Or do you not keep cars long enough for that to be an issue?

My current car came with an auto-dimming mirror, along with an electronic compass and its display integrated into the mirror frame. It was part of a trim package, so I don't know what it cost; if I could have ordered the items separately I would have skipped it. I had the dealer swap it out for a manual mirror (no charge). Not because I wasn't willing to put up with the auto-dimming, although it was a needless complication, but because the mirror frame extended about 1/2"-3/4" lower with the compass display/mirror sensor than the manual mirror. It blocked my view
Now that I think back, every car that I've owned or leased (only leased one) since late 2001 has come with an auto-dimming mirror. None had a compass in the mirror and none blocked my view.

My Maxima GXE (lowest trim) came with it. You couldn't get one w/o it that year. My 350Z came with it. I had the 2nd lowest trim already. The only lower one was stick shift and I can't drive stick worth beans. IIRC, all trim levels of Z came with it except the lowest one. My 06 Prius came with it but I had the 2nd to highest trim. You couldn't subtract it out w/o going to a lower trim. My Leafs have it (don't recall if they all came with it). My Bolt has it but I have the higher (of two) trim level.

None have ever failed, w/the oldest being over about 13 years old when I sold it.

I wouldn't consider it a must have and if it saved me some $, I'd be ok w/declining it but not at the expense of going to a trim or equipment level I don't want. It never even occurred to me to ask about swapping it out, let alone for free. Why would I? If I had to pay to get it swapped out, I wouldn't, unless it failed.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:40 am

Maybe he believes that if the auto-dimming mirror fails, it will take his soul with it.

I'm pretty sure that I've had at least one manually-dimming mirror fail...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

goldbrick
Posts: 959
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Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:22 pm

Total cost was about $30 since I bought it at a junkyard. New ones are $100 - $200 IIRC but that is retail and I'm sure auto mfg's pay a small % of that.

And then there is this:

Reducing glare
The problem with a standard rearview mirror, of course, is that, while it can reduce glare by being flipped up and providing a ‘reflection’ of what’s happening behind you, this has the effect of dimming everything substantially. So, while it’s great when you’re dealing with an inconsiderate driver who’s sitting right behind you with his brights on, it can make things hard to see when there’s an absence of light. An auto-dimming mirror doesn’t do this. Not only does this kind of mirror dim automatically when there’s a bright light behind you, it also dims in proportion to the light source it’s dealing with, meaning the dimming effect will be far less pronounced when there’s a relatively faint light in your mirror.

Another important benefit of an auto-dimming rearview mirror is that it prevents something called the Troxler effect. This is an optical illusion that removes unchanging stimulus from your field of vision when you fixate on a specific point. Because of this phenomenon, when you’re driving at night, the glare from bright lights is not only blinding while they are present, but it creates a blindspot in your vision even after the vehicle has turned off. According to Gentex, a company that manufactures auto-dimming rearview mirrors, the Troxler effect can reduce a driver’s reaction time by as much as 1.4 seconds. A car driving at 100km/h will travel 37.5m in that time.


https://www.leisurewheels.co.za/blogs/a ... rors-work/

GRA
Posts: 12273
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:45 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:55 pm
GRA wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:24 pm
Auto-dimming mirrors
...

When you say it's inexpensive, how much did it cost, and what will it cost to repair or replace when it eventually fails? Or do you not keep cars long enough for that to be an issue?

My current car came with an auto-dimming mirror, along with an electronic compass and its display integrated into the mirror frame. It was part of a trim package, so I don't know what it cost; if I could have ordered the items separately I would have skipped it. I had the dealer swap it out for a manual mirror (no charge). Not because I wasn't willing to put up with the auto-dimming, although it was a needless complication, but because the mirror frame extended about 1/2"-3/4" lower with the compass display/mirror sensor than the manual mirror. It blocked my view
Now that I think back, every car that I've owned or leased (only leased one) since late 2001 has come with an auto-dimming mirror. None had a compass in the mirror and none blocked my view.

My Maxima GXE (lowest trim) came with it. You couldn't get one w/o it that year. My 350Z came with it. I had the 2nd lowest trim already. The only lower one was stick shift and I can't drive stick worth beans. IIRC, all trim levels of Z came with it except the lowest one. My 06 Prius came with it but I had the 2nd to highest trim. You couldn't subtract it out w/o going to a lower trim. My Leafs have it (don't recall if they all came with it). My Bolt has it but I have the higher (of two) trim level.

None have ever failed, w/the oldest being over about 13 years old when I sold it.

I wouldn't consider it a must have and if it saved me some $, I'd be ok w/declining it but not at the expense of going to a trim or equipment level I don't want. It never even occurred to me to ask about swapping it out, let alone for free. Why would I? If I had to pay to get it swapped out, I wouldn't, unless it failed.

(OT) As noted, if it hadn't posed a visibility and thus safety issue, I would have kept it. There was also a completely unnecessary light on it, forget whether it was green or amber, to indicate it was working. This light was in my field of vision and was a distraction. If I'd have kept the mirror some black electrical tape would have solved that problem.

On my 2003 Forester, the base 2.5X trim came with a manual mirror, the 2.5XS I bought and up came with the auto-dimming/compass one. There were options on the XS that the X didn't have which were of value to me, especially 4 wheel discs (shortened the stopping distance by 1 car length and eliminated fade, both major pluses given the amount of mountain driving I do) and electronic brake force distribution, plus a limited-slip diff. I was also stuck with auto climate control, which I knew I didn't want but had to take to get the other stuff. I've used it in manual mode ever since, always cursing the fact that it defaults to ACC anytime you turn it on, and I have to look down at it to make sure iIve got it off and out of recirc mode. The base model came with the standard 3-dial CC, which was all I needed or wanted. If I hadn't known that it would require dismantling and probably replacing the dash, I probably would have asked about swapping that out too!😒
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 12273
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:49 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:40 am
Maybe he believes that if the auto-dimming mirror fails, it will take his soul with it.

I'm pretty sure that I've had at least one manually-dimming mirror fail...

(OT) In which case you make a trip to the local pick-your-part, find a replacement, pay a few bucks and spend 5 minutes with a screwdriver swapping them out.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 12273
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: TSLA corporate outlook

Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:16 pm

(OT)
goldbrick wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:22 pm
Total cost was about $30 since I bought it at a junkyard. New ones are $100 - $200 IIRC but that is retail and I'm sure auto mfg's pay a small % of that.
Good. Any wiring to do - ISTR a power wire running down the glass into the base of the dash on mine - I imagine the dealer mech just cut it off when removing it, but I wouldn't want to have to run a new one, or pay shop rates for someone else to.

goldbrick wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:22 pm
[youtube][/youtube]
And then there is this:

Reducing glare
The problem with a standard rearview mirror, of course, is that, while it can reduce glare by being flipped up and providing a ‘reflection’ of what’s happening behind you, this has the effect of dimming everything substantially. So, while it’s great when you’re dealing with an inconsiderate driver who’s sitting right behind you with his brights on, it can make things hard to see when there’s an absence of light. An auto-dimming mirror doesn’t do this. Not only does this kind of mirror dim automatically when there’s a bright light behind you, it also dims in proportion to the light source it’s dealing with, meaning the dimming effect will be far less pronounced when there’s a relatively faint light in your mirror.

Another important benefit of an auto-dimming rearview mirror is that it prevents something called the Troxler effect. This is an optical illusion that removes unchanging stimulus from your field of vision when you fixate on a specific point. Because of this phenomenon, when you’re driving at night, the glare from bright lights is not only blinding while they are present, but it creates a blindspot in your vision even after the vehicle has turned off. According to Gentex, a company that manufactures auto-dimming rearview mirrors, the Troxler effect can reduce a driver’s reaction time by as much as 1.4 seconds. A car driving at 100km/h will travel 37.5m in that time.


https://www.leisurewheels.co.za/blogs/a ... rors-work/

Can't say I noticed any significant difference during the few nights I had mine, although that was 2003 so they may be better now. In urban areas it's so brightly lit that your night vis sucks anyway, and in the unlit rural driving that makes up a large part of my mileage there's so few cars on the road (and even fewer overtaking me) that I rarely need to use it other than briefly, except when some genius well behind me neglects to dim their high beams.

Do you have a more independent source for these safety claims, i.e. not from a company that makes the product?

Just to demonstrate that I'm far from a Luddite, as an example of a high-tech mirror where the value is obvious, I like the combined mirror/rear camera view offered in some Bolt trims. But much as I may prefer the unobstructed view from the camera, I don't want to be dependent on it. The Bolt implementation avoids this. Of course, if the natural rear view sucks the fact that there's a mirror option is only a theoretical advantage. The Bolt's isn't a problem, but I imagine most Teslas are, given their shallow-sloped rear windows.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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