Leaf SV+ w/ Tech Pkg vs. Niro EV EX

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aunsafe2015

Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2021
Messages
6
I know this is a Leaf forum so there might be some pro-Leaf bias, but I nevertheless want to hear people's thoughts--especially anybody who considered both and ended up choosing a Leaf.

Comparing the Niro EX to SV+ w/ Tech Pkg, you've got similar features overall (e.g., power seat w/ lumbar support, adaptive cruise, etc) and moderately similar range (Niro wins by 10-15%).

To me, the most noteworthy differences might be (1) Chademo vs CCS fast charging, (2) exterior styling/shape (especially of trunk space & volume), (3) active vs. passive battery cooling, and (4) reliability, which I think is a bit of a wildcard at this point for the Kia, whereas proven pretty solid with the Leaf. Am I missing any?

Would value any input.

BTW, at least in my area, an SV+ w/ Tech Package and a Niro EV EX are fairly comparable in price, so price isn't really a pro or con for either at the moment.
 
We need to know where you live, because the climate matters here. In a mild climate, I'd gamble on the Leaf's latest batteries over Hyundai/Kia's, but in a hotter climate I'd take the active cooling. As for charging, which does your local/regional charging network have more of, in better locations: CCS or Chademo? Also, in case you aren't aware of "Rapidgate" the Leaf batteries - mainly the 40kwh but also, to a lesser extent, the 62kwh - are prone to heat-related 'throttling' when quick charged multiple times in one day. Finally, you need to drive both, because most people will prefer one EV over another when they drive both.
 
I've seen the Niro EV up close and talked to the owners, they seem very happy, no issues they complained about. I think the starting price is quite a bit higher from what I remember. So many variables to look at. Are you driving long distances daily, are you going to QC more than once daily, do you want a car ride or an SUV ride, etc.?
 
LeftieBiker said:
We need to know where you live, because the climate matters here. In a mild climate, I'd gamble on the Leaf's latest batteries over Hyundai/Kia's, but in a hotter climate I'd take the active cooling. As for charging, which does your local/regional charging network have more of, in better locations: CCS or Chademo? Also, in case you aren't aware of "Rapidgate" the Leaf batteries - mainly the 40kwh but also, to a lesser extent, the 62kwh - are prone to heat-related 'throttling' when quick charged multiple times in one day. Finally, you need to drive both, because most people will prefer one EV over another when they drive both.

Thanks for the response. I'm in southern Virginia. June through September is low-90s and high humidity. Winters are mild... overnight lows around 30 and daytime highs near 50.

Not terribly concerned about rapidgate or rapid charging in general b/c I don't really road trip, and if I do, my family has an plug-in hybrid w/ ICE that we could use if range were a concern.
 
knightmb said:
I've seen the Niro EV up close and talked to the owners, they seem very happy, no issues they complained about. I think the starting price is quite a bit higher from what I remember. So many variables to look at. Are you driving long distances daily, are you going to QC more than once daily, do you want a car ride or an SUV ride, etc.?

Thanks for the response. For me, I could get either an SV+ w/ Tech Pkg or a Niro EX w/ cold weather package (heat pump) for about the same price. Niro would probably end up being 2-3% more expensive.

Very rarely road trip and have a plug-in hybrid w/ ICE engine for that if range were a concern. Would rarely be QCing.

I take your point, and the other point -- lots of personal subjective issues that would dictate which would be preferable to any given person.

Anybody have any reason to think one would be more or less reliable over the 5-10 year term? Leaf seems to have a good proven track record of mechanical reliability, whereas Niro EV is a bit unknown at this point, I think. With active vs passive battery cooling, I suppose it's probably a safe bet that Niro EV's battery would last longer than Leaf in any but the mildest of climates, where they might be about equal.
 
With active vs passive battery cooling, I suppose it's probably a safe bet that Niro EV's battery would last longer than Leaf in any but the mildest of climates, where they might be about equal.

I'd agree with you on that - were it not for the issues that the Korean car companies have had with their batteries. Still, your climate is pretty hot for much of the year, so unless you have an A/C cooled garage, you are probably right to lean towards the Niro.
 
aunsafe2015 said:
Thanks for the response. For me, I could get either an SV+ w/ Tech Pkg or a Niro EX w/ cold weather package (heat pump) for about the same price. Niro would probably end up being 2-3% more expensive.
Well, in that case, if you need the extra room that an SUV offers, that might be the better choice.
Very rarely road trip and have a plug-in hybrid w/ ICE engine for that if range were a concern. Would rarely be QCing.
Then either one would work for your needs, you'll be charging mostly at home it sounds like. It seems like you have about the same temperature range where I live. I don't think battery cooling would be an issue. The person I talked with that has the Niro EV also lives in TN and from what he told me, the active cooling for the battery very rarely kicks in during his daily drives if not using the local QC station. I monitor my battery temperature on LeafSpy and even on days with 90F temperature, the battery basically sits at the low temperature that it started with in the morning (usually in the 60F to 70F range) after a full day of driving, so bigger is better when it comes to thermal mass and keeping the battery from getting too hot. Doing a QC during the day changes that completely though as I can easily heat it up to the 80F to 90F range in one session, but it's still 20F cooler than what I use to do to my 2013 Leaf battery. :lol:
I take your point, and the other point -- lots of personal subjective issues that would dictate which would be preferable to any given person.

Anybody have any reason to think one would be more or less reliable over the 5-10 year term? Leaf seems to have a good proven track record of mechanical reliability, whereas Niro EV is a bit unknown at this point, I think. With active vs passive battery cooling, I suppose it's probably a safe bet that Niro EV's battery would last longer than Leaf in any but the mildest of climates, where they might be about equal.
On a Leaf forum, sure we are biased but we also try to be realistic about needs. From the data we gather here, the newest Leaf batteries are a lot better than the old (well, make sense, technology improves), especially for the bigger battery sizes. The Leaf seems to have an advantage if you drive it *a lot*, like I do. The battery likes exercise and seems to last longer than if you drive your Leaf once per week/month as an example. Also, the Leaf rides like a car, it's comfortable. The Niro EV rides like a SUV, so better than a truck, but not as cushy as a car. But... if you live in a rural area with rough roads, the SUV ride wins over the car. Also, the Niro EV is probably better at towing, if you need that feature, etc.
I never discourage anyone that wants an EV, no matter the model (unless it is truly terrible) because that is one less ICE on the road.
A common factor that both Leaf and Niro share, you won't miss all the ICE maintenance of oil changes, air filter, fluid changes, belt changes, engine tweaks and all that go with the ICE experience.
 
aunsafe2015 said:
(4) reliability, which I think is a bit of a wildcard at this point for the Kia
Niro EV did poorly at https://web.archive.org/web/20201126141633/https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars/. Was also briefly mentioned at https://web.archive.org/web/20201119224015/https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/reliability-problems-plague-newer-electric-cars/.
 
LeftieBiker said:
With active vs passive battery cooling, I suppose it's probably a safe bet that Niro EV's battery would last longer than Leaf in any but the mildest of climates, where they might be about equal.

I'd agree with you on that - were it not for the issues that the Korean car companies have had with their batteries. Still, your climate is pretty hot for much of the year, so unless you have an A/C cooled garage, you are probably right to lean towards the Niro.

There have been recalls related to LG battery production defects but that is distinct from battery degradation.
For VA type weather I think Kia is the easy choice between these two cars, and CCS is icing on the cake.

I don't have a clue about Kia Corporate or its dealerships, but Nissan customer support and its EV dealership support (yes, some exceptions exist) can be summed up easily: atrocious.
 
Not sure if it matters, but I recently heard Kia was going to discontinue the Niro EV in leu of the EV 6.

So on one hand it means this may be the last production year, and that could be a concern, but it also means you might get great discounts.
 
SageBrush said:
I don't have a clue about Kia Corporate or its dealerships, but Nissan customer support and its EV dealership support (yes, some exceptions exist) can be summed up easily: atrocious.

That describes my Nissan dealer perfectly, and the biggest strike against getting the Ariya.

Each time I bring my Leaf in for service, I can almost see the disgust in their eyes.
Last time I was there for a tire rotation and inspection, and a slight adjustment to the driver door.
It should have taken an hour.

I was there for nearly 5 hours while everyone else came and went. It pretty much felt like their service center was punishing me because they hate EVs and weren't making "enough" money off me.
 
I've had limited interaction w/Nissan customer support but overall, it's not been too bad. As for dealers in terms of service, I usually seek out dealers w/a good rep (e.g. Nissan Sunnyvale but alas they are gone besides being far). Fortunately, the one closest to home is ok even though I do NOT like their sales dept (they have a bad rep and I've posted about my experience + that of two others before).

I think the biggest ding/negative for me was getting the 3G TCU actually working after installation was problematic, at best. It required numerous phone calls to Nissan EV support and a visit to the dealer again.

This spans 4 Nissans spanning from late 2001 to mid-2011 and mid-2013 until now.
 
cwerdna said:
I've had limited interaction w/Nissan customer support but overall, it's not been too bad.

You are the king of anecdotes. List those cases of Nissan telling customers to pound sound when they present with a degraded pack that is a few days past warranty. Then list those cases of Nissan telling customers that their pack is fine because they refuse to diagnose a weak cell.
 
SageBrush said:
cwerdna said:
I've had limited interaction w/Nissan customer support but overall, it's not been too bad.

You are the king of anecdotes. List those cases of Nissan telling customers to pound sound when they present with a degraded pack that is a few days past warranty. Then list those cases of Nissan telling customers that their pack is fine because they refuse to diagnose a weak cell.
:roll: Those also would be anecdotes. And yes, some of them are here and some people had to fight battles (e.g. https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=440122).

As for the latter, I know of https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=457964#p457964, to which Biggiejohn was was able to get resolved and later receive an entire replacement pack as his pack (after module replacement) hit 8 bars within the warranty period.

So from these two, you'd conclude atrocious? I've owned 3 Nissans and leased one spanning over 17 years.

I know of one EV maker where their customer and service support used to be very good and has seemingly degraded to be pretty bad, maybe even to the point of atrocious...
 
cwerdna said:
So from these two, you'd conclude atrocious?
We both know of more cases -- I'll guess a dozen between the two types of warranty refusal but easily more.
Please don't tell me your anecdote collection is so biased. That would be disappointing.

Let me help your memory a bit with one story I remember some details about. A fellow on his way to the airport dropped his 9th capacity bar. He stopped at the dealership, showed them the display, and then was told it would take hours (!) to perform the battery check. It was a Friday and that would cause him to miss his flight so he continued on his way and returned Monday ... only to be told he was a day past warranty and he was SOL.

Remember the cases of people showing up at their dealership with stories of range dropping from 40-ish to turtle in the space of a mile and being told by the dealership and the corporate experts that the battery is "fine" ? I do. Remember the cases of owners complaining that the car loses power going up a hill, and being told by the dealership and corporate that it is normal ? I do.

Addendum: here is the 'airport' thread
https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=26641

And less I forget, you can fill in the details of Nissan proclaiming 80% battery at 10 years and then telling customers with of 30-40% battery loss within two years that they were SOL. That was only remedied with a class action lawsuit.

I would say that Nissan sucks, but it is much worse than that.
 
My wife and I test drove both cars before settling on the Leaf. I really liked the Niro EV but my wife found the ride too harsh (feeling every little bump on our terrible Michigan roads) and too loud. I didn’t disagree. On the other hand, the Leaf is a much gentler ride (though by no means my grandfather’s Cadillac!) and much quieter. We ended up getting a great deal on a lease of a 2020 Leaf in February 2021…I’m sure the dealer was as happy to get it off their lot as we were to take it. And we still really like the Leaf.

But I still play “what if” with the Niro sometimes. Just the other day I was looking on the local Kia dealer’s website where it was offering a deal comparable to what we got from Nissan…
 
Back in '86, when we were new car shopping for the first time, I drove a VW Golf. The car was nice, but when we got it on the then-concrete interstate, the road noise was unacceptably loud, and that, along with the lack of a 5MPH bumper*, was a deal breaker. It's ok to play "what if" in your head, but ride quality on your local roads isn't something that you'd come to not notice - more the opposite.

* When I mentioned the flimsy bumpers, the salescreature chuckled and said "That's what collision insurance is for!"
 
Ok, got the names mixed up, they both begin with the letter "a" :lol:
Well anyway... I stand by what I said, even if it was last year for you. :eek:

Academiguy said:
My wife and I test drove both cars before settling on the Leaf. I really liked the Niro EV but my wife found the ride too harsh (feeling every little bump on our terrible Michigan roads) and too loud. I didn’t disagree. On the other hand, the Leaf is a much gentler ride (though by no means my grandfather’s Cadillac!) and much quieter. We ended up getting a great deal on a lease of a 2020 Leaf in February 2021…I’m sure the dealer was as happy to get it off their lot as we were to take it. And we still really like the Leaf.
Congratulations! No more oil changes and the like. You won't miss that.
If you are the technical type, look up stuff about LeafSpy. It's fun to play with the settings that are hidden. :mrgreen:
Read a lot here for tweaks on the EV. Everyone always find some annoying setting somewhere that they want to turn off.
Other than that, keep the tire pressure extra high and fill up the windshield wiper fluid from time to time, that's about it. ;)
Also, go long enough without smelling gasoline and you'll notice that a lot of ICE vehicles seem to ooze the smell for some reason. You'll notice when you ride in a friend's ICE vehicle. It's so odd to notice it and they don't because they are so used to the smell...
But I still play “what if” with the Niro sometimes. Just the other day I was looking on the local Kia dealer’s website where it was offering a deal comparable to what we got from Nissan…
The grass is always greener on the other side. If I had waited a month before purchasing mine, I could have probably saved some money on the Nissan sales event stuff, but I don't worry about it. I had a Gen 1 - 2013 Leaf before, 8 faithful years of service despite the heavy abuse I put it through and my newer Gen 2 - 2020 Leaf has so far been an even better experience for me. All of my friends and family driving the Gen 1 Leaf have envy of course when I pull up in the shiny and new Gen 2 Leaf. :lol:
 
Some other factors to be aware of:

1. A small minority of Niro EV motors have been known to make an annoying ticking sound like a playing card stuck in a bicycle spoke that apparently drives their owners crazy. (I’m not sure what percentage of Niros this has happened to, but I would be shocked if it was more than 5% and is probably even less than 1%).

2. The Niro EV will not reach its full 75 kW fast charging speed in cold weather, and sometimes won’t even reach it in mild weather. I’ve read reports of Niro owners driving on the highway in the winter at ~70 mph for two hours and the car still will only fast charge at 35-55 kW, depending on different variables. I forget what temp the battery needs to reach to fast charge at 75 kW - I want to say it’s between 70-80F - but Bjorn has documented this problem in some of his videos. In southern VA, this might not be a problem, but just be prepared that if you do say take a drive to D.C. in sub-50F ambient temps, you may be surprised to find your charging speed throttled when you stop.

3. The Leaf’s cargo space is nominally better than the Niro’s, but the Niro may be ever so slightly better in the real world (for example, Bjorn’s banana box test).

I too weighed the Leaf Plus vs the Niro. At the time, the Niro was 5K more expensive, so it was an easy choice for me. I’ve never actually driven a Niro EV, but I did sit in a Niro hybrid at a dealership. Seat comfort and ride comfort are important to me, and the Leaf has a really soft ride and the most comfortable seat of any car I’ve owned. The Niro seats are not Bolt level uncomfortable, but I thought the Leaf’s were definitely better. Also, you’re right that the Leaf’s reliability is more proven. It’s not Toyota reliability, but I wouldn’t plan on having to do much with the Leaf besides tire rotations, battery checks, and fluid changes. Everyone’s use case is different, but the way my family uses our Leaf, it was one of the lowest TCO new cars that we could have purchased period.

At the same time, the CCS vs Chademo thing is a major issue. After all the scandal and outrage around the Leaf Plus still not having a liquid cooled battery, the Achilles heel of the Leaf Plus is actually turning out to be Chademo and not the battery. The overwhelming majority of Chademo plugs in the US are limited to 50 kW. More and more EV makers are switching to CcS. EVGo said two years ago that they were going to upgrade their network to 100-150 kW and this basically just isn’t happening. EA has been de-rating their Chademo plugs down to 50 kW. At a certain point - maybe one year, maybe ten years - Chademo plugs are going to see mass neglect in maintenance and upkeep. Right now, you don’t plan on doing much long distance driving in your EV, but that may change. And fast charging can even sometimes become necessary when doing a high amount of local driving, especially if it takes you to different corners of a metropolitan area. I’ve personally been considering trading my Leaf Plus in for a Niro for just this reason. I live in the NYC area and let’s say that in 3 years time, I need to drive to Long Island and then up to the Bronx all in one day. If I need to fast charge for some reason, will there even be any working Chademo plugs then? A little hyperbolic maybe, but then maybe not.....
 
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