GRA
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Re: Official Audi A3 e-tron thread

Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:07 am

evnow wrote:
GRA wrote: Let's see, that's 43.1% of trips are 3 miles or less, 50.3% are 4 or less, 57.6% are 5 or less, 76.2% are 10 or less, 85% are 15 or less, and 89.9% are 20 or less, leaving just 10.1% over 20 miles, and 83.5% of those trips are by personal vehicle (i.e. not public transit, walking, biking): http://nhts.ornl.gov/tables09/fatcat/20 ... TRANS.html
You have to be careful about "trips".

If I drop & pickup kids on my way to work, my 20 mile round trip looks like 4 trips about 5 miles (or whatever depending on where the kids go).
Sure, each trip has a start and end, so a simple out and back is two trips. The issue is how far you need to go between charges, and then choosing a PHEV with the right AER to cover your routine use (and maybe some extra, if it's worth it to you). The Gen 2 Volt's AER covers everyone except the super- and mega-commuters, i.e. 90%+ of the population, and it's not really worth the extra battery cost for now to cover them; Gen 2 BEVs will likely be their best car option (moving closer or taking a train would be their best option from an energy, environmental and probably time perspective).
Last edited by GRA on Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official Audi A3 e-tron thread

Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:16 am

redLEAF wrote:
GRA wrote:
redLEAF wrote:Starting to make the rounds with car mags; recent production model test with AW:

http://autoweek.com/article/drive-revie ... z3q3y3GWkc

'real world' -- only 15 to 17 miles is disappointing
I think it's quite reasonable, and those appear to be lead-footed auto journalist miles, not EPA miles: http://nhts.ornl.gov/tables09/fatcat/20 ... MILES.html

Let's see, that's 43.1% of trips are 3 miles or less, 50.3% are 4 or less, 57.6% are 5 or less, 76.2% are 10 or less, 85% are 15 or less, and 89.9% are 20 or less, leaving just 10.1% over 20 miles, and 83.5% of those trips are by personal vehicle (i.e. not public transit, walking, biking): http://nhts.ornl.gov/tables09/fatcat/20 ... TRANS.html
I'm actually just about at the 'normal' daily work commute of about 15 miles each way, M - F but don't have the option to charge at work so unless it could get through say 3 out of our 4 seasons with a consistent 30 miles per charge simply won't work; we'll see how these do but this range is about half (31 miles on the EU circuit) so still disappointing, at least for me.
[As Soup Nazi] "No e-tron for YOU!" A Sonata or Volt (1st or 2nd Gen), depending on how much you value having a real fifth seat versus never using any gas. Or an i3 REx, if you're willing to pay the brand premium for four seats. Or maybe an Outlander depending on what the EPA gives them, but I suspect they'll fall into the same range as the Sonata.
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Re: Official Audi A3 e-tron thread

Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:18 am

pkulak wrote:Yeah. 15 miles would be a huge disappointment. Isn't the PIP 11 miles? And that thing is a joke. I do about 30 miles a day, and I'm not sure I'm cool with doing fully half my miles on gas. I'll reserve judgement until the official EPA numbers come out, though. Even if it only has 6 kWh useable (which seems super low), that would only be 2.5 m/kWh! I just don't see how that's possible.
The current PiP's 11, but I think it was CR who reported that continuous AER was only 6 or 7. The next-gen Pip is supposed to be considerably more.
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Re: Official Audi A3 e-tron thread

Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:57 pm

GRA wrote:
redLEAF wrote:
GRA wrote: I think it's quite reasonable, and those appear to be lead-footed auto journalist miles, not EPA miles: http://nhts.ornl.gov/tables09/fatcat/20 ... MILES.html

Let's see, that's 43.1% of trips are 3 miles or less, 50.3% are 4 or less, 57.6% are 5 or less, 76.2% are 10 or less, 85% are 15 or less, and 89.9% are 20 or less, leaving just 10.1% over 20 miles, and 83.5% of those trips are by personal vehicle (i.e. not public transit, walking, biking): http://nhts.ornl.gov/tables09/fatcat/20 ... TRANS.html
I'm actually just about at the 'normal' daily work commute of about 15 miles each way, M - F but don't have the option to charge at work so unless it could get through say 3 out of our 4 seasons with a consistent 30 miles per charge simply won't work; we'll see how these do but this range is about half (31 miles on the EU circuit) so still disappointing, at least for me.
[As Soup Nazi] "No e-tron for YOU!" A Sonata or Volt (1st or 2nd Gen), depending on how much you value having a real fifth seat versus never using any gas. Or an i3 REx, if you're willing to pay the brand premium for four seats. Or maybe an Outlander depending on what the EPA gives them, but I suspect they'll fall into the same range as the Sonata.
Yep, I actually had a number of 4 door sedans in the past and now prefer hatchbacks, SUV's (up to mid-size) due to their practical utility; did the minivan thing (owned 3 over the span of several years) when the kids were small up through college so, mostly for my own driving now its either my '12 LEAF or '13 Touareg; that's why I'm waiting to see the production Q7 e-tron as it could possibly combine enough EV range for work commutes with longer trip use & utility. I had the chance to drive an i3 ReX and its a bit weird on what its 'mission' is ... I mean you can't really drive it very long distances, plus its a bit small on cargo space ... very nice ride, etc, and fit & finish but for that price (loaded these things easily get into the mid-50K range) it has a small niche. Now if Chevy decided to go a bit bigger with their Volt (they showed a mid-size SUV as a prototype a few years back) that might be something ... as far as Mitsu and their Outlander, don't hold your breadth for the US; just maybe in CA or West coast but not the rest.
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Re: Official Audi A3 e-tron thread

Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:51 pm

redLEAF wrote:
GRA wrote:<snip>
[As Soup Nazi] "No e-tron for YOU!" A Sonata or Volt (1st or 2nd Gen), depending on how much you value having a real fifth seat versus never using any gas. Or an i3 REx, if you're willing to pay the brand premium for four seats. Or maybe an Outlander depending on what the EPA gives them, but I suspect they'll fall into the same range as the Sonata.
Yep, I actually had a number of 4 door sedans in the past and now prefer hatchbacks, SUV's (up to mid-size) due to their practical utility; did the minivan thing (owned 3 over the span of several years) when the kids were small up through college so, mostly for my own driving now its either my '12 LEAF or '13 Touareg; that's why I'm waiting to see the production Q7 e-tron as it could possibly combine enough EV range for work commutes with longer trip use & utility. I had the chance to drive an i3 ReX and its a bit weird on what its 'mission' is ... I mean you can't really drive it very long distances, plus its a bit small on cargo space ... very nice ride, etc, and fit & finish but for that price (loaded these things easily get into the mid-50K range) it has a small niche. Now if Chevy decided to go a bit bigger with their Volt (they showed a mid-size SUV as a prototype a few years back) that might be something ... as far as Mitsu and their Outlander, don't hold your breadth for the US; just maybe in CA or West coast but not the rest.
We seem to be on much the same page; I've never understood the appeal of the i3 for the price, and its sales have amazed me. Give it a fuel tank at least twice as big so it could go at least two hours between fill-ups on the ICE, and include hold mode (owners shouldn't have to hack it) and it would make more sense, but compared to a Volt, especially Gen 2, I just don't see the value; the performance level and BMW-ness doesn't overcome the operating limitations.

I've been driving Subie wagons for the past 27 years, and there's such obvious demand for a Voltec-powertrain small AWD CUV (something Captiva-sized would be my choice, although many would prefer the larger Equinox. You can't buy Captivas new in the U.S., but they are available as CPO which must be why I see them around) that it's amazing that even GM could choose to ignore it to date, and give us the massively overpriced, under-performing and unwanted idiocy that is the ELR instead. Although I think the small CUV would probably need a smaller or at least re-located pack than the Volt to allow a full five seats (I don't care, but most people seem to desire it).

By the time the Outlander arrives it may well elicit a so what? response; if only it had shown up in 2013 or 2014. The A3 E-tron is nice, but I'd prefer a real wagon instead of a hatchback/short wagon. Give me an AWD Jetta GTE Sportwagen with at least 15 but no more than about 30 miles EPA AER (mostly limited to inconvenient L1 charging only, with opportunistic occasional free/cheap L2) for $30k or less, and if I can't hold out until an appropriate BEV/FCEV arrives, that would fully meet my needs. I might even consider foregoing the AWD if it got the price down below the magic figure.
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Re: Official Audi A3 e-tron thread

Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

GRA wrote:
redLEAF wrote:
GRA wrote:<snip>
[As Soup Nazi] "No e-tron for YOU!" A Sonata or Volt (1st or 2nd Gen), depending on how much you value having a real fifth seat versus never using any gas. Or an i3 REx, if you're willing to pay the brand premium for four seats. Or maybe an Outlander depending on what the EPA gives them, but I suspect they'll fall into the same range as the Sonata.
Yep, I actually had a number of 4 door sedans in the past and now prefer hatchbacks, SUV's (up to mid-size) due to their practical utility; did the minivan thing (owned 3 over the span of several years) when the kids were small up through college so, mostly for my own driving now its either my '12 LEAF or '13 Touareg; that's why I'm waiting to see the production Q7 e-tron as it could possibly combine enough EV range for work commutes with longer trip use & utility. I had the chance to drive an i3 ReX and its a bit weird on what its 'mission' is ... I mean you can't really drive it very long distances, plus its a bit small on cargo space ... very nice ride, etc, and fit & finish but for that price (loaded these things easily get into the mid-50K range) it has a small niche. Now if Chevy decided to go a bit bigger with their Volt (they showed a mid-size SUV as a prototype a few years back) that might be something ... as far as Mitsu and their Outlander, don't hold your breadth for the US; just maybe in CA or West coast but not the rest.
We seem to be on much the same page; I've never understood the appeal of the i3 for the price, and its sales have amazed me. Give it a fuel tank at least twice as big so it could go at least two hours between fill-ups on the ICE, and include hold mode (owners shouldn't have to hack it) and it would make more sense, but compared to a Volt, especially Gen 2, I just don't see the value; the performance level and BMW-ness doesn't overcome the operating limitations.

... (something Captiva-sized would be my choice, although many would prefer the larger Equinox. You can't buy Captivas new in the U.S., but they are available as CPO which must be why I see them around) ...

... The A3 E-tron is nice, but I'd prefer a real wagon instead of a hatchback/short wagon. Give me an AWD Jetta GTE Sportwagen with at least 15 but no more than about 30 miles EPA AER (mostly limited to inconvenient L1 charging only, with opportunistic occasional free/cheap L2) for $30k or less, and if I can't hold out until an appropriate BEV/FCEV arrives, that would fully meet my needs. I might even consider foregoing the AWD if it got the price down below the magic figure.
Your comment on the Chevy Captiva (and GM in what they do internationally) had me remembering one named this on a Canadian plated SUV on a trip last year -- the Captiva also had a few iterations; as a Saturn VUE badged car, etc. but here in the states they sold them to fleets (rental and otherwise) so you'll see them for sale at Carmax and Hertz/Avis when they're turning over their stock. Here is a history link that covers the early nameplate and a second one that covers the latest gen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Antara

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Captiva

On the Jetta (now Golf) sportwagen; yes, that one's also a good size but I prefer a higher ride height on my trip cars (like your Subie); even though you can't see over bigger SUV's, you can anticipate many more traffic slow downs, etc. in many cases so you can reroute and/or start slowing down versus sedans, etc.; the A3 sportback is just very slightly raised but smaller than the Golf wagon so loses points for utility as well as more points for a pretty low battery range despite its premium price.

Audi showed its Q7 e-tron at the recent Tokyo car show and this site lists a 35 mile EV range (of course EU cycle once again) and its BIG (I don't need or want a 3rd row of seats; Volvo also went big with its XC90 PHEV) but we'll see once this car gets tested as well; carrying around extra pounds but offsetting it by using the electric capability may be worth it if we could travel 'gas free' on work commutes; having more cargo space wouldn't hurt either, just would be really rare to ever need extra seating more than 5.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2016- ... 01613.html
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Re: Official Audi A3 e-tron thread

Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:57 pm

redLEAF wrote:<snip>
On the Jetta (now Golf) sportwagen; yes, that one's also a good size but I prefer a higher ride height on my trip cars (like your Subie); even though you can't see over bigger SUV's, you can anticipate many more traffic slow downs, etc. in many cases so you can reroute and/or start slowing down versus sedans, etc.; the A3 sportback is just very slightly raised but smaller than the Golf wagon so loses points for utility as well as more points for a pretty low battery range despite its premium price.
My Forester's right on the borderline of tall wagon/short CUV (later ones are definitely CUV), but I really don't care about the eye height, as I'm usually driving on fairly empty roads and can see around the limited traffic with no problems. Nor do I need the extra ground clearance, as I'm rarely driving on unplowed roads, and Subies aren't jeep-road cars (lacking locking hubs and usually, a low-range). After eliminating about a dozen others, the final downselect was between the Forester, the regular Legacy wagon and the Outback wagon, essentially a jacked-up Legacy with plastic cladding on the sides. Any of the three would have suited me as they shared the same powertrain and were in the same ballpark pricewise, but the Forester won out because it was the shortest (good for turning around on 1-car wide dirt roads with no turnouts), because it was the lightest of the three by a couple of hundred lb. (the others had a 1 gallon larger tank and 1 mpg HWY more, but I figured for all the driving I do from sea level up to 7-10k feet, the weight was more important), and because it came with a full-size spare; the others had compacts, and I'm not sure that a full-size tire would fit in their spare wells. As I'm often on dirt roads or way off the main routes, I consider a full-size spare mandatory on trips.

That being said, if I'd been able to wait six months I probably would have gotten an AWD Honda Element, although its 24 mpg HWY fell just below my minimum desired hwy mpg of 25. I wasn't all that thrilled by the suicide doors that force you to open the fronts to open the backs (and forced the front seat pax to unbuckle to let a rear seat pax out, until they changed that in 2007), but the individual easily removable or flip-up-to-the-side rear seats and the waterproof utility rear floor covering were ideal. They'd just been introduced and neither AWDs or manual transmissions were available yet, so I went with the Forester, and it's met my needs quite well.
redLEAF wrote: Audi showed its Q7 e-tron at the recent Tokyo car show and this site lists a 35 mile EV range (of course EU cycle once again) and its BIG (I don't need or want a 3rd row of seats; Volvo also went big with its XC90 PHEV) but we'll see once this car gets tested as well; carrying around extra pounds but offsetting it by using the electric capability may be worth it if we could travel 'gas free' on work commutes; having more cargo space wouldn't hurt either, just would be really rare to ever need extra seating more than 5.
The Q7's way beyond my size needs even if I were willing and able to afford it, but it's good competition for the XC90 and X5.

Just to get back on-topic, here's another A3 e-tron review, via GCC:
First drive: US spec Audi A3 Sportback e-tron plug-in hybrid; 83-86 MPGe with 16-17 mile EV range
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/11 ... 03-a3.html
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Re: Official Audi A3 e-tron thread

Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:45 pm

Another review, from GCR:
2016 Audi A3 e-Tron Sportback: First Drive Of Audi's Plug-In Hybrid
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... -in-hybrid
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Re: Official Audi A3 e-tron thread

Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:22 pm

Crazy that all these US reviewers confirm the 16 mile AER number while everyone across the pond seems to have no problem getting into the mid 20s. What did Audi do to the US version???

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Re: Official Audi A3 e-tron thread

Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:40 pm

Brad Berman's very positive review at plugincars.com, and I wholeheartedly agree with his comments:
Why Audi A3 E-Tron Is a More Significant Car Than You Think
http://www.plugincars.com/why-audi-a3-e ... 31158.html
For all the excitement about plug-in electric vehicles since their introduction five years ago, there are only 10 models that sell at a rate of more than 200 per month. Half of those—just five cars—are plug-in hybrids (if you include the BMW i3 with extended range). Starting later this month, electric buyers have one more to consider: the Audi A3 E-tron, which we recently took for a spin from San Francisco to and around Palo Alto, Calif. It’s a great car, but its appeal is a lot less about battery-power—and a lot more about style and road manners. Here's where it gets interesting: there are a lot more drivers who care about those things than about the battle between electrons and hydrocarbons. . . .
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