Herm
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Location: Timbuktu, Mali

Re: What gm-volt guys think of MNL ...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:37 pm

TRONZ wrote:So the GM Volt "logic" on the past couple pages is basically "planes and trains still burn gas so LEAF owners are not really driving a BEV???". Got it.
You forgot the taxis you will ride and ICE vehicles you will have to rent, beg or borrow from your wife. Your goodness is not measured by how many gallons of gas you burn..

AndyH
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Location: San Antonio

Re: What gm-volt guys think of MNL ...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:10 pm

stephent wrote: None is unobtainable for most people, counting their use of 2nd ICE cars, rentals, rides from other people.
Do you recognize that some here are consistently talking about a specific situation, while you are alternately talking about whatever situation fits your message? It's impossible to have a meaningful conversation in a situation like that - nailing jello to a tree comes to mind.

Here's a tidbit for you. I don't own a Leaf yet as my life situation changed significantly last summer. In the mean time, 90% of my transportation needs are provided by my electric motorcycle's 40 mile range. The rest of the driving - when I need to carry 'stuff' or people or drive longer than 40 miles - happens in my 50mpg diesel car filled with biodiesel. The oil in my engine is synthetic and specifically engineered for long drain intervals. It has been in the engine for a bit more than two years. My house is 100% electric and is powered by wind and solar (and some of my cooking happens in a solar oven). I'm shopping for property on which will be built an off-grid passive solar house that will only require 1600 W of solar panels, collects its own water, and processes it's own waste - with no connection to any grid.

Stop and explore this forum a bit, if you wish, and get to know the folks here. We're not like the folks you might find on other forums - so it might be beneficial to leave prejudices and assumptions at the door on the way in. ;)

So long.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
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TRONZ
Posts: 2240
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:01 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 202
Location: Denver, CO

Re: What gm-volt guys think of MNL ...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:13 pm

Herm wrote:Your goodness is not measured by how many gallons of gas you burn..
I guess that would depend on which forum you're on.
Every start, is as good as any start can ever be. - Douglas Darden

Stats;
2011 LEAF SL VIN#202, Delivered 01.30.11. Now, by far, the oldest LEAF in Colorado.

SanDust
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Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:54 am

Re: What gm-volt guys think of MNL ...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:31 pm

AndyH wrote: In the mean time, 90% of my transportation needs are provided by my electric motorcycle's 40 mile range. The rest of the driving - when I need to carry 'stuff' or people or drive longer than 40 miles - happens in my 50mpg diesel car filled with biodiesel. The oil in my engine is synthetic and specifically engineered for long drain intervals. It has been in the engine for a bit more than two years. My house is 100% electric and is powered by wind and solar (and some of my cooking happens in a solar oven). I'm shopping for property on which will be built an off-grid passive solar house that will only require 1600 W of solar panels, collects its own water, and processes it's own waste - with no connection to any grid.
TRONZ wrote:
Herm wrote:Your goodness is not measured by how many gallons of gas you burn..
I guess that would depend on which forum you're on.
You two need to get over yourselves before you drown in a pool of self-righteousness. Plus piously proclaiming "mine is so much bigger than yours because I use synthetic" just isn't very attractive. :roll:

This is Saturday Night Live material. Seriously.

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TRONZ
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Delivery Date: 31 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 202
Location: Denver, CO

Re: What gm-volt guys think of MNL ...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:54 pm

SanDust wrote:This is Saturday Night Live material. Seriously.
SNL??? Yes it is. The skit was called "The Thing That Wouldn't Leave!". Look it up.

Just to be clear, Andy has a deep respect for the environment and is a highly respected member of MNL. Andy and BEV's will be here long after the Volt is gone.
Every start, is as good as any start can ever be. - Douglas Darden

Stats;
2011 LEAF SL VIN#202, Delivered 01.30.11. Now, by far, the oldest LEAF in Colorado.

stephent
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:42 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Sep 2011

Re: What gm-volt guys think of MNL ...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:48 pm

AndyH wrote:
stephent wrote: None is unobtainable for most people, counting their use of 2nd ICE cars, rentals, rides from other people.
Do you recognize that some here are consistently talking about a specific situation, while you are alternately talking about whatever situation fits your message? It's impossible to have a meaningful conversation in a situation like that - nailing jello to a tree comes to mind.
I am talking about a consistent situation. Less than Volt range commute/regular driving, for a person not willing to give up all ICE usage, who still wants to do long trips > EV range of both cars. A quite common situation.

It is YOU and Smidge who kept on diverting discussion to a different situation, for people with 100-120 mile commutes, and people who are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to have zero ICE usage, and bring up irrelevancies. I stated in my first post in the thread that the Leaf is better in this situation, and have never argued about these situations. I just stated that these situations are relatively rare. Instead of addressing my scenario, which applies to vastly larger # of people than your scenarios, you keep on repeating your alternate scenarios and dodge my points.

AndyH
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Location: San Antonio

Re: What gm-volt guys think of MNL ...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:37 pm

stephent wrote:It is YOU and Smidge who kept on diverting discussion to a different situation, for people with 100-120 mile commutes, and people who are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to have zero ICE usage, and bring up irrelevancies. I stated in my first post in the thread that the Leaf is better in this situation, and have never argued about these situations. I just stated that these situations are relatively rare. Instead of addressing my scenario, which applies to vastly larger # of people than your scenarios, you keep on repeating your alternate scenarios and dodge my points.
See - we're not communicating here - simply talking past each other. I'm simply trying to help you see that other viewpoints exist beyond the CD range of a Volt. I asked you to do a second set of mileage calcs - which you side-stepped. Pot - kettle -- kettle - pot. ;)

I've failed. I'm done. Enjoy your Volt.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
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2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
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AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: What gm-volt guys think of MNL ...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:40 pm

SanDust wrote:
AndyH wrote: In the mean time, 90% of my transportation needs are provided by my electric motorcycle's 40 mile range. The rest of the driving - when I need to carry 'stuff' or people or drive longer than 40 miles - happens in my 50mpg diesel car filled with biodiesel. The oil in my engine is synthetic and specifically engineered for long drain intervals. It has been in the engine for a bit more than two years. My house is 100% electric and is powered by wind and solar (and some of my cooking happens in a solar oven). I'm shopping for property on which will be built an off-grid passive solar house that will only require 1600 W of solar panels, collects its own water, and processes it's own waste - with no connection to any grid.
TRONZ wrote:
Herm wrote:Your goodness is not measured by how many gallons of gas you burn..
I guess that would depend on which forum you're on.
You two need to get over yourselves before you drown in a pool of self-righteousness. Plus piously proclaiming "mine is so much bigger than yours because I use synthetic" just isn't very attractive. :roll:

This is Saturday Night Live material. Seriously.
Thanks for the feedback, SanDust. Sorry that we don't share the same values and goals. No, actually I'm not - because there's room enough on the planet for each of us to have our own experiences.

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
Aldous Huxley
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
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stephent
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:42 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Sep 2011

Re: What gm-volt guys think of MNL ...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:49 pm

AndyH wrote: See - we're not communicating here - simply talking past each other. I'm simply trying to help you see that other viewpoints exist beyond the CD range of a Volt. I asked you to do a second set of mileage calcs - which you side-stepped. Pot - kettle -- kettle - pot. ;)
You must have reading comprehension issues. I REPEATEDLY STATED that in your alternative scenarios, a Leaf works better. I didn't side-step, I agreed that mileage calculations for those scenarios would show a Leaf would save a substantial amount of gasoline. I didn't actually do the calculation for your scenario and post numbers for it, because I didn't think it necessary when I already know a Leaf is better in such a scenario, and never disputed this fact at all. Why must I do calculations for a situation for which we already agree?

But while I readily concede that in your rarer situations, a Leaf is a better fit, you just constantly ignore my posited more common scenario, in which a Volt is an arguably a better fit. I acknowledge that other situations/viewpoints exist. Why don't you acknowledge my situation, and acknowledge that my scenario is way more common than yours?

AndyH
Posts: 6388
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Location: San Antonio

Re: What gm-volt guys think of MNL ...

Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:49 pm

stephent wrote: But while I readily concede that in your rarer situations, a Leaf is a better fit, you just constantly ignore my posited more common scenario, in which a Volt is an arguably a better fit. I acknowledge that other situations/viewpoints exist. Why don't you acknowledge my situation, and acknowledge that my scenario is way more common than yours?
I cannot acknowledge that your scenario is way more common because in my experience it's not. I presented my situation (much to SanDust's distaste) simply to show you that this forum, where one can find a number of members doing more than I on the sustainability front, it not like other places in cyberspace. I hoped to shift one of the endpoints - to expand the cone of awareness to include new opportunities.

If I wanted a new vehicle for my daily commute for the next couple of years, I only need 30 miles round trip range. A Leaf would be more efficient and less expensive than a Volt (but down here in the land of drought, the motorcycle has them both beat). If I decide to expand my commute to 80 miles one way, I'd still use a Leaf and recharge at the far end because zero tailpipe is important to me. If I somehow forgot lessons learned earlier in life and opted for an 80+ mile commute, I'd stay with my biodiesel VW due to it's higher fuel economy, roughly zero carbon footprint for fuel, and significantly lower price of admission. Ditto for long trips - like the number I've made in the past coast to coast. Bottom line (in case it's not clear yet) I have yet to see a scenario where a PHEV would be a better fit than my current EV/biodiesel combo.

It simply seems to me that some are going out of their way to present the Volt in as perfect light as possible while also suggesting that others that value a pure EV are somehow deficient in brain matter. And this is a viewpoint with which I simply do not resonate.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

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