lorenfb
Posts: 2440
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Sun May 03, 2015 10:12 pm

Beleaf wrote: Does the i3 have any problems? Of course it does, just like every other mass produced vehicle. Have a look at the Problems/Troubleshooting section of this forum and there are plenty of Leaf problems too. I cancelled the Leaf on the basis of posts regarding capacity losses in a similar climate to the one I live in, as well as poor Nissan corp and local dealer service.
To say that all vehicles' reliability are equal is rather naive! Other than the battery issue, which no other BEV
has logged more vehicle miles to really provide comparative data, the Leaf has had no real reliability
problems, e.g. recalls, compared to what we're hearing about the i3. Given that the i3 is just a little over
a year on the market, the "jury-is-still-out" on the i3 and the i3 Rex especially, which is not the case for
the Leaf. A Leaf buyer knows the reality of his purchase.

Bottom line: Why would anyone consider buying an i3 with all its 'knowns' and potential 'unknowns' versus
a Leaf, where the i3 provides no real benefits over the Leaf, e.g. range, features, cost, and availability of
charging options/locations?
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

Beleaf
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:20 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2012
Location: Australia

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Sun May 03, 2015 10:54 pm

lorenfb wrote:
Beleaf wrote: Does the i3 have any problems? Of course it does, just like every other mass produced vehicle. Have a look at the Problems/Troubleshooting section of this forum and there are plenty of Leaf problems too. I cancelled the Leaf on the basis of posts regarding capacity losses in a similar climate to the one I live in, as well as poor Nissan corp and local dealer service.
To say that all vehicles' reliability are equal is rather naive! Other than the battery issue, which no other BEV
has logged more vehicle miles to really provide comparative data, the Leaf has had no real reliability
problems, e.g. recalls, compared to what we're hearing about the i3. Given that the i3 is just a little over
a year on the market, the "jury-is-still-out" on the i3 and the i3 Rex especially, which is not the case for
the Leaf. A Leaf buyer knows the reality of his purchase.

Bottom line: Why would anyone consider buying an i3 with all its 'knowns' and potential 'unknowns' versus
a Leaf, where the i3 provides no real benefits over the Leaf, e.g. range, features, cost, and availability of
charging options/locations?
People are buying them so the answer is clearly 'yes'. The lack of active thermal battery management on the Leaf (and the Golf) is a major design error IMO and the main reason I cancelled my order. The basic advantage the i3 has over the Leaf is the better electrical efficiency. The Leaf has advantages in cost, number of seats, and (for some) the plain jane blend in styling.

I didn't say both vehicles reliability is equal. I said that both vehicles have experienced design and production issues that have been posted on the forums. The Leaf had the advantage from the start because it is a converted already mass produced ICE chassis, not a complete greenfield design from scratch with new materials and manufacturing processes.
Regards from Australia!

Silver Nissan Leaf Reserved: May 2012; Cancelled: July 2012.
Iconic Silver BMW i3 (BEV) Delivered Dec 4, 2014.

lorenfb
Posts: 2440
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Mon May 04, 2015 9:19 am

Beleaf wrote:
The lack of active thermal battery management on the Leaf (and the Golf) is a major design error IMO and the main reason I cancelled my order.
TMS requires a key trade-off in range, especially for BEVs with battery capacities less than 25kWhr.
Many Leaf owners in more temperate climates don't value TMS over range.
Beleaf wrote: The basic advantage the i3 has over the Leaf is the better electrical efficiency.
What's your basis for this, especially since the i3 uses an AC induction motor as does the Tesla versus
a PM motor in the Leaf? Yes, the i3 is lighter with the same Cd, so at higher speeds >50/60 mph the
efficiency delta is less significant. In any case, the overall efficiency delta is hardly significant to affect
most buyers' decisions.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

mtndrew1
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:52 am
Location: Gardena CA

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Mon May 04, 2015 10:01 am

lorenfb wrote:
Beleaf wrote: The basic advantage the i3 has over the Leaf is the better electrical efficiency.
What's your basis for this, especially since the i3 uses an AC induction motor as does the Tesla versus
a PM motor in the Leaf? Yes, the i3 is lighter with the same Cd, so at higher speeds >50/60 mph the
efficiency delta is less significant. In any case, the overall efficiency delta is hardly significant to affect
most buyers' decisions.
The i3 BEV can go 81 EPA miles on 18.8 usable kWh as opposed to the Leaf's 84 miles on 21.x usable kWh.

The EPA fueleconomy.gov site shows the i3 BEV using 27 kWh to go 100 miles whereas the Leaf requires 30 kWh to go the same distance.

MPGe for the i3 BEV is 124 whereas the Leaf is 114.

These signs point to the i3 being more efficient with a given amount of energy than the Leaf.
2018 Tesla Model 3 Long Range (100% charge @ 43k miles shows 5.8% degradation)

2013 Nissan Leaf S + QC sold with warranty pack replacement (~35% degradation @ ~40k miles)

2015 Kia Soul EV+ Lease returned 10/14/17 45,000 miles w/ 13.8% degradation.

lorenfb
Posts: 2440
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Mon May 04, 2015 10:47 am

mtndrew1 wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
Beleaf wrote: The basic advantage the i3 has over the Leaf is the better electrical efficiency.
What's your basis for this, especially since the i3 uses an AC induction motor as does the Tesla versus
a PM motor in the Leaf? Yes, the i3 is lighter with the same Cd, so at higher speeds >50/60 mph the
efficiency delta is less significant. In any case, the overall efficiency delta is hardly significant to affect
most buyers' decisions.
The i3 BEV can go 81 EPA miles on 18.8 usable kWh as opposed to the Leaf's 84 miles on 21.x usable kWh.

The EPA fueleconomy.gov site shows the i3 BEV using 27 kWh to go 100 miles whereas the Leaf requires 30 kWh to go the same distance.

MPGe for the i3 BEV is 124 whereas the Leaf is 114.

These signs point to the i3 being more efficient with a given amount of energy than the Leaf.
So, you can always find an efficiency test versus another that indicates one vehicle having a better
efficiency than another. The efficiency of both under all types of driving conditions that most drivers
experience is very close, i.e. less than the 8% from the EPA test. Given the price delta between the two,
that variable becomes a non-factor for most all buyers.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

mtndrew1
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:52 am
Location: Gardena CA

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Mon May 04, 2015 11:01 am

lorenfb wrote: What's your basis for this, especially since the i3 uses an AC induction motor as does the Tesla versus
a PM motor in the Leaf?
Well you asked for the basis, there's the basis. An agency that does the identical test procedure on both cars determined the i3 is more efficient.

Clearly the i3 is a much more expensive car with its own pros and cons, but it's pretty clearly more efficient than the Leaf, even with TMS keeping its batteries at an ideal temperature.
2018 Tesla Model 3 Long Range (100% charge @ 43k miles shows 5.8% degradation)

2013 Nissan Leaf S + QC sold with warranty pack replacement (~35% degradation @ ~40k miles)

2015 Kia Soul EV+ Lease returned 10/14/17 45,000 miles w/ 13.8% degradation.

Beleaf
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:20 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2012
Location: Australia

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Mon May 04, 2015 3:27 pm

lorenfb wrote:
Beleaf wrote:
The lack of active thermal battery management on the Leaf (and the Golf) is a major design error IMO and the main reason I cancelled my order.
TMS requires a key trade-off in range, especially for BEVs with battery capacities less than 25kWhr.
Many Leaf owners in more temperate climates don't value TMS over range.
Beleaf wrote: The basic advantage the i3 has over the Leaf is the better electrical efficiency.
What's your basis for this, especially since the i3 uses an AC induction motor as does the Tesla versus
a PM motor in the Leaf? Yes, the i3 is lighter with the same Cd, so at higher speeds >50/60 mph the
efficiency delta is less significant. In any case, the overall efficiency delta is hardly significant to affect
most buyers' decisions.
As already posted above, the i3 has been tested and shown to be more efficient than basically any other production EV. That won't matter to all buyers, but it will matter to many. Those that rate electrical efficiency probably also rate the fact that i3 production is significantly powered by renewable energy, uses a lot of environmentally friendly materials, and is significantly recyclable at end of life.

The i3 has TMS and is still more efficient than the Leaf which has no TMS, so even if you don't think you need it, it comes at no practical efficiency loss for those in temperate climates.
Regards from Australia!

Silver Nissan Leaf Reserved: May 2012; Cancelled: July 2012.
Iconic Silver BMW i3 (BEV) Delivered Dec 4, 2014.

lorenfb
Posts: 2440
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Mon May 04, 2015 7:38 pm

Beleaf wrote:
The i3 has TMS and is still more efficient than the Leaf which has no TMS, so even if you don't think you need it, it comes at no practical efficiency loss for those in temperate climates.
The i3 should be AT LEAST 14% more efficient given the weight difference of 457 (3256 - 2799),
but as stated before is just a lowly 8% better. Most likely the AC induction motor and the TMS reduced
the efficiency. It doesn't take much engineering insight to evaluate where the differences are for a BEV
comparative analysis.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

Beleaf
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:20 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2012
Location: Australia

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Mon May 04, 2015 8:03 pm

lorenfb wrote:
Beleaf wrote:
The i3 has TMS and is still more efficient than the Leaf which has no TMS, so even if you don't think you need it, it comes at no practical efficiency loss for those in temperate climates.
The i3 should be AT LEAST 14% more efficient given the weight difference of 457 (3256 - 2799),
but as stated before is just a lowly 8% better. Most likely the AC induction motor and the TMS reduced
the efficiency. It doesn't take much engineering insight to evaluate where the differences are for a BEV
comparative analysis.
Yet it is still more efficient. No amount of pitching TMS differences, weight, Cd, Electric motor types, Tyre sizes and construction, 'Engineering', etc. alter the fact that the i3 is in production today, has been for over a year and it IS more efficient.

Will there be an even more efficient EV (perhaps even a future more efficient Leaf?) I reckon so, and I thank BMW for lifting the bar with innovative construction and design. It takes guts to step outside the square, and BM stepped further outside than Nissan. Good on them, they got my vote, and I couldn't be happier with it.
Regards from Australia!

Silver Nissan Leaf Reserved: May 2012; Cancelled: July 2012.
Iconic Silver BMW i3 (BEV) Delivered Dec 4, 2014.

lorenfb
Posts: 2440
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Tue May 05, 2015 9:19 am

Beleaf wrote: It takes guts to step outside the square, and BM stepped further outside than Nissan. Good on them, they got my vote, and I couldn't be happier with it.
That's why they sold only 406 for April in the U.S. (a decline of over 50%) versus only a 15% decline for the
Leaf, right? Buyers really value that 8% additional efficiency when considering an i3 versus the Leaf, right?
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

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