eloder
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Jan 2015

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Tue May 05, 2015 2:38 pm

Not having TMS in an EV is just stupid.

Teslas still have 92% capacity after 100k miles in the real world. Volts and smart EDs see no more than 1-2% capacity drain per 10k miles, if that.

Do you know what's really inefficient about a Leaf? Buying a brand new battery every 4-5 years of ownership in non-mild climates, or living with substantially reduced range.

Nobody is buying i3 because it's the most efficient EV (you'll never come remotely close to making up that cost difference even after hundreds of thousands of miles driven), and it does have a substantial price premium. i3 owners likely will never have to worry about too much range degradation though.
2015 red Leaf S w/ Quick Charge
Central Ohio

Beleaf
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:20 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2012
Location: Australia

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Tue May 05, 2015 3:39 pm

lorenfb wrote:
Beleaf wrote: It takes guts to step outside the square, and BM stepped further outside than Nissan. Good on them, they got my vote, and I couldn't be happier with it.
That's why they sold only 406 for April in the U.S. (a decline of over 50%) versus only a 15% decline for the
Leaf, right? Buyers really value that 8% additional efficiency when considering an i3 versus the Leaf, right?
LOL. I'm just one buyer, and even if BMW sold zero i3's that wouldn't alter the innovative design, manufacturing and efficiency of the car. Monthly sales are variable, and good design is only part of a successful product. The Leaf is a mature product line with repeat buyers, the i3 is still finding it's mark.
Regards from Australia!

Silver Nissan Leaf Reserved: May 2012; Cancelled: July 2012.
Iconic Silver BMW i3 (BEV) Delivered Dec 4, 2014.

Beleaf
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:20 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2012
Location: Australia

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Tue May 05, 2015 3:43 pm

eloder wrote: Nobody is buying i3 because it's the most efficient EV (you'll never come remotely close to making up that cost difference even after hundreds of thousands of miles driven), and it does have a substantial price premium. i3 owners likely will never have to worry about too much range degradation though.
Efficiency is one of the reasons I bought the i3. TMS was definitely on my list, and the design and manufacturing process were extra benefits to me. I don't look for a cost benefit of efficiency.
Regards from Australia!

Silver Nissan Leaf Reserved: May 2012; Cancelled: July 2012.
Iconic Silver BMW i3 (BEV) Delivered Dec 4, 2014.

lorenfb
Posts: 2440
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Tue May 05, 2015 9:28 pm

Beleaf wrote: the i3 is still finding it's mark.
That's what Blackberry said about their Playbook tablet when the Apple iPad came out.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

DarthPuppy
Posts: 733
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:45 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Aug 2013

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Tue May 05, 2015 11:05 pm

This past Earth Day I took a 2nd look at the i3 at a local Earth Day event.

When it first came out, I balked at the styling and the backward rear doors. But I'm finding that the styling is growing on me. :|

Though I'm still not sold on those rear doors. I'm starting to conclude this car has a lot of merit.

One thing I'm very glad about - the increase in EV choices at different price points and styles. Just as the ICE market has so many different models because different customers have different preferences, if the EV market is to really take hold, we need this type of variety too.
'13 Leaf SL
'18 Honda Clarity Touring PHEV

Beleaf
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:20 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2012
Location: Australia

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Wed May 06, 2015 12:02 am

lorenfb wrote:
Beleaf wrote: the i3 is still finding it's mark.
That's what Blackberry said about their Playbook tablet when the Apple iPad came out.
Trolling?

Have a look at the first year or two of Leaf sales. It took quite a while for regular high numbers to occur and even so there has been many ups and downs on the way.

I think we've covered the bases. The i3 is not a Leaf, and probably no-one with an i3 would want it to be a Leaf. It has more innovation, it has TMS and it is more efficient. What happens in the future will happen, but one thing for sure, the i3 has raised the bar for EV design and manufacture which will result in a step up for the whole EV industry.
Regards from Australia!

Silver Nissan Leaf Reserved: May 2012; Cancelled: July 2012.
Iconic Silver BMW i3 (BEV) Delivered Dec 4, 2014.

lorenfb
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Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
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Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Wed May 06, 2015 10:14 am

Beleaf wrote: the i3 has raised the bar for EV design and manufacture which will result in a step up for the whole EV industry.
Not really! One can easily say that about the Tesla MS too. Basically, any OEM could easily have designed
and manufactured a model like an i3 at its price point, but most OEMs see the price point to a volume
market BEV at $35K or lower. This obviously requires a number of design compromises. Remember, many
potential BEV buyers are "climate change deniers" and make their buying decisions totally based on
economics, e.g. what's the overall cost of ownership of 40-45 mpg four door ICE for a family of three
versus an equivalent BEV. It appears that BMW wishes to not participate in the volume BEV market as it
does with its other vehicles. Given that, then BMW will have to further differentiate it BEV product by
providing better features than the i3, e.g. a 200 mile range, if it expects to have a viable volume market
for its BEV or continue to be a low volume BEV niche "player".
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

eloder
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Jan 2015

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Wed May 06, 2015 1:11 pm

What happens in the future will happen, but one thing for sure, the i3 has raised the bar for EV design and manufacture which will result in a step up for the whole EV industry.
I guess that would be true if Tesla didn't exist and put out an even more incredible machine three years ago.

I could see what you mean if A) The i3 had any range advantage due to its engineering (it doesn't), B) It cost less (it doesn't), C) They made the lightest EV out there for its footprint (they didn't), D) The efficiency allowed it to charge faster than a Tesla (it doesn't), or E) They made the safest EV out there (they didn't). The only unique thing the i3 has it that it is primarily a BEV with an REX option, even if it's vastly inferior to how the Volt handles their REX.

I guess there are a few people out there who'll buy it solely because it's produced by renewable energy (Tesla will produce all components including batteries with renewables in a couple of years), or somehow think that the efficiency has a benefit other than saving slightly on fuel for a $10k higher initial investment, but I just fail to see what's so special about the car at its extra-special price point and its BMW logo.
2015 red Leaf S w/ Quick Charge
Central Ohio

Beleaf
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:20 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2012
Location: Australia

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Wed May 06, 2015 2:48 pm

lorenfb wrote:
Beleaf wrote: the i3 has raised the bar for EV design and manufacture which will result in a step up for the whole EV industry.
Not really! One can easily say that about the Tesla MS too. Basically, any OEM could easily have designed
and manufactured a model like an i3 at its price point, but most OEMs see the price point to a volume
market BEV at $35K or lower. This obviously requires a number of design compromises. Remember, many
potential BEV buyers are "climate change deniers" and make their buying decisions totally based on
economics, e.g. what's the overall cost of ownership of 40-45 mpg four door ICE for a family of three
versus an equivalent BEV. It appears that BMW wishes to not participate in the volume BEV market as it
does with its other vehicles. Given that, then BMW will have to further differentiate it BEV product by
providing better features than the i3, e.g. a 200 mile range, if it expects to have a viable volume market
for its BEV or continue to be a low volume BEV niche "player".
What Tesla has done is raised the bar as well, by innovating around the battery construction and capacity, and the size and performance of the Model S. Efficiency and innovative construction materials are not their high points. Around the city, which is what the i3 is designed for, the Model S has too much battery and too much body to be efficient. They have managed to quell the range anxiety of their potential buyers though. The relative efficiency improves on the highway, but the i3 is a city car not a long distance cruiser.

In any market, there is a range of pricing to suit a range of buyers. As per normal, BMW pitched higher than Nissan. Do we expect the i3 to outsell the Leaf, and if it doesn't it's a failure? Nissan/Renault sells about 4 times the volume of cars sold by BMW, they exist in different sectors of the market. What BMW does is up to BMW, but the engineers who did the i3 teardown reckon it is profitable after 20,000 units, maybe BMW is smarter than you think by creating a unique, efficient design and pricing it above the Leaf...

Climate change deniers, there's a thread for that... :)
Regards from Australia!

Silver Nissan Leaf Reserved: May 2012; Cancelled: July 2012.
Iconic Silver BMW i3 (BEV) Delivered Dec 4, 2014.

Beleaf
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:20 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2012
Location: Australia

Re: Official BMW i3 thread

Wed May 06, 2015 3:01 pm

eloder wrote:
What happens in the future will happen, but one thing for sure, the i3 has raised the bar for EV design and manufacture which will result in a step up for the whole EV industry.
I guess that would be true if Tesla didn't exist and put out an even more incredible machine three years ago.

I could see what you mean if A) The i3 had any range advantage due to its engineering (it doesn't), B) It cost less (it doesn't), C) They made the lightest EV out there for its footprint (they didn't), D) The efficiency allowed it to charge faster than a Tesla (it doesn't), or E) They made the safest EV out there (they didn't). The only unique thing the i3 has it that it is primarily a BEV with an REX option, even if it's vastly inferior to how the Volt handles their REX.

I guess there are a few people out there who'll buy it solely because it's produced by renewable energy (Tesla will produce all components including batteries with renewables in a couple of years), or somehow think that the efficiency has a benefit other than saving slightly on fuel for a $10k higher initial investment, but I just fail to see what's so special about the car at its extra-special price point and its BMW logo.
The Tesla is a great machine, no doubt, and the i3 is nothing like it. There are innovations on both that raise the bar for the whole EV industry and there is space for a wide range of EV's in the growing EV market.

Regarding efficiency, what the i3 has is the best efficiency regardless of size, so even though it's not the smallest or the lightest, or the best range etc, but it remains the most efficient production EV since release. For those of us who charge from on-site renewables, that is something worth considering.
Regards from Australia!

Silver Nissan Leaf Reserved: May 2012; Cancelled: July 2012.
Iconic Silver BMW i3 (BEV) Delivered Dec 4, 2014.

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