AndyH
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:11 am

GRA wrote:Thanks for the report, Andy.
<snip>

So, sounds like some minor improvements. To me, its main advantage is that it's currently the only relatively affordable 4/AWD PHEV SUV available, and if I needed to replace my Forester now I'd consider it. But given my driving patterns (i.e. almost entirely used for 400+ mile roadtrips with no charging opportunities away from home), needs and desires, I'm not going to save any money compared to a smaller, more nimble HEV or even ICE CUV that gets better MPG, and I'd burn less gas and have lower emissions in the latter two, so I'll wait for a BEV/FCEV CUV that's a better fit for me.
Not sure I'd call them improvements as much as changes, though Top Gear's biases towards ICE and history of getting too many things wrong when talking about hybrids and EVs makes me cautious about their nits as well as their idea of an improvement. :lol:

I agree - this car's efficiency is tailored for urban driving while also including other capability. Frankly, I'm not sure there will be a perfect fit for your non-standard transportation needs.

The Forester is one of the cars I've been examining. Sadly, it's another vehicle suffering from bloat. My 'perfect' car would be something in the size of a '95-'97 (B4) VW Passat wagon, 2 or AWD, as a PHEV-40. Not seeing that happening any time soon.
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GRA
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:13 pm

AndyH wrote:
GRA wrote:Thanks for the report, Andy.
<snip>

So, sounds like some minor improvements. To me, its main advantage is that it's currently the only relatively affordable 4/AWD PHEV SUV available, and if I needed to replace my Forester now I'd consider it. But given my driving patterns (i.e. almost entirely used for 400+ mile roadtrips with no charging opportunities away from home), needs and desires, I'm not going to save any money compared to a smaller, more nimble HEV or even ICE CUV that gets better MPG, and I'd burn less gas and have lower emissions in the latter two, so I'll wait for a BEV/FCEV CUV that's a better fit for me.
Not sure I'd call them improvements as much as changes, though Top Gear's biases towards ICE and history of getting too many things wrong when talking about hybrids and EVs makes me cautious about their nits as well as their idea of an improvement. :lol:

I agree - this car's efficiency is tailored for urban driving while also including other capability. Frankly, I'm not sure there will be a perfect fit for your non-standard transportation needs.

The Forester is one of the cars I've been examining. Sadly, it's another vehicle suffering from bloat. My 'perfect' car would be something in the size of a '95-'97 (B4) VW Passat wagon, 2 or AWD, as a PHEV-40. Not seeing that happening any time soon.
Yes, every generation of a vehicle gets bigger. My 2003 Forester is 175" long, while the current version, 3? generations later, is 182" long - it's also 3" (71" vs. 68") wider and taller (68" vs. 65"), while the wheelbase is up 5.7" (105.1" vs. 99.4"). My ideal would be something like a Golf GTE Alltrack Sportwagen, or better yet the same in a pure BEV, but for now no one makes it and the move away from wagons to CUVs is continuing, so I hold out little hope. The Crosstrek (P)HEV is maybe the closest available, but I'd really prefer the regular Impreza without the jacked-up body and side cladding, the cargo area height is compromised by the battery, and it's AER is under 20 miles which I consider sort of a useful minimum. Plus, I want a spare well. I had hopes for the Niro EV, but it lacks AWD and is also lacking in range and QC speed for serious road trips - not that any current BEV is a match for an ICE for those. Only an FCEV like the Nexo (also not available AWD, dammit) would be, IF the fueling infrastructure's built.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:17 pm

GRA wrote:Only an FCEV like the Nexo (also not available AWD, dammit) would be, IF the fueling infrastructure's built.
And if someone else is paying for the hydrogen.
WetEV
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AndyH
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:52 am

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:Only an FCEV like the Nexo (also not available AWD, dammit) would be, IF the fueling infrastructure's built.
And if someone else is paying for the hydrogen.
Electronic tropes can be allowed to die - recycling efforts are better applied elsewhere. :lol:

In Germany, where excess renewable energy is being stored as H2, it's less expensive to drive 100 km on H2 than on diesel.
http://www.h2-suedtirol.com/en/hydrogen/faqs/

One would have to be overflowing with a failure of imagination to expect tomorrow to look like today.
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WetEV
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:26 am

AndyH wrote:In Germany, where excess renewable energy is being stored as H2, it's less expensive to drive 100 km on H2 than on diesel.
It would be better to use the hydrogen to cut Germany's brown coal habit first.

AndyH wrote:One would have to be overflowing with a failure of imagination to expect tomorrow to look like today.
The future is likely to not be as you imagine. Or as I imagine, as well.
WetEV
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AndyH
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:36 am

WetEV wrote:
AndyH wrote:In Germany, where excess renewable energy is being stored as H2, it's less expensive to drive 100 km on H2 than on diesel.
It would be better to use the hydrogen to cut Germany's brown coal habit first.
I'm guessing you don't understand the point of storage. That's fine. Maybe this'll help: More storage means more renewable generation can be used which means less is needed from the fossil and nuclear generation the country's replacing by design. And that means H2's less expensive than diesel and that ultimately has nothing to do with what Guy was talking about, as he was talking about a hypothetical vehicle, not how the fuel's priced. Feel free to bash H2 in the appropriate thread.
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factshe ... mix-charts
WetEV wrote:
AndyH wrote:One would have to be overflowing with a failure of imagination to expect tomorrow to look like today.
The future is likely to not be as you imagine. Or as I imagine, as well.
Non sequitur.
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WetEV
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:49 am

AndyH wrote:
WetEV wrote:
AndyH wrote:In Germany, where excess renewable energy is being stored as H2, it's less expensive to drive 100 km on H2 than on diesel.
It would be better to use the hydrogen to cut Germany's brown coal habit first.
I'm guessing you don't understand the point of storage. That's fine.
I do understand the point of storage. Hydrogen is one of the few possible ways that seasonal storage of energy can be handled. Seasonal storage is needed to move past 80% or so renewable energy.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15162

Without subsidies for renewable hydrogen, it would be about four times the cost of renewable electric power. Sure, some might not mind paying a lot more more for the faster refueling. But hydrogen is basically an expensive inefficient battery, of which the main usefulness comes from the ability to scale up the storage tank size at a fairly low cost.

AndyH wrote:
WetEV wrote:
AndyH wrote:One would have to be overflowing with a failure of imagination to expect tomorrow to look like today.
The future is likely to not be as you imagine. Or as I imagine, as well.
Non sequitur.
One of my favorite comics.
https://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2019/03/01
WetEV
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GRA
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:21 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:Only an FCEV like the Nexo (also not available AWD, dammit) would be, IF the fueling infrastructure's built.
And if someone else is paying for the hydrogen.
Obviously, in the US for now. Given the current cost of QC'ing with demand charges, somebody else is also paying for some of the electricity for charging, or else it's more expensive than buying gas at current prices if the QCs are priced to be profitable.

Given sufficient energy replenishment infrastructure of both types, I've long said that PHFCEVs (once the prices of both batteries and FCs have come down enough) are the way to go (assuming batteries don't improve to the point where they can compete directly with liquid or gaseous fuels in the areas I mentioned), as it plays to the strengths of both batteries and FCEVs. But as we've had that argument many, many times before, no point in repeating it.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

golfcart
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:20 pm

Back on topic...

My wife has a 2018 Outlander phev. We got a great deal on it near the end of last year. Combined with my Leaf we have been able to do about 90% of our driving with electricity.

She gets about 32mpg on road trips on the interstate going 75mph and about 17-25 miles of all electric range for the daily commute and around town depending on the season and traffic conditions. With her daily round trip of 10 miles we typically only use gas when we go out of town.

It has good storage, a comfortable interior, Bluetooth audio streaming music, all wheel drive, Android auto, heated seats and a great warranty.

We can also add about 300 miles of range in roughly 2 minutes at the numerous gas station we pass while on long trips (Take that supercharger network). Overall we've been very happy with the purchase.

It's actually made me consider replacing my Leaf with a used BMW I3 REX when my winter range finally gets too low for my commute.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Official Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV SUV thread

Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:39 pm

It's actually made me consider replacing my Leaf with a used BMW i3 REX when my winter range finally gets too low for my commute.
Bad, bad idea. Cwerdna has been following those beasties on Facebook, and the reliability of the Rex version is terrible. Not only that, but most of the issues seem to brick the car on the spot - even when that spot is a highway. I'm sure he'll be here with links and Tales Of Horror later.

On the bright side, you'd likely be able to find one cheap. ;)
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