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davewill
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Re: 110v Charger on board

Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:58 am

smkettner wrote:What exactly is the safety issue of having the brick mounted in the vehicle? ...
I know this has been posted many times. The EVSE provides GFCI protection. It makes sure the contacts are not hot if you happen to drop the plug into a puddle at your feet or if it's raining when you go to plug in. It signals to the car what the max amperage it can draw is. The J1772 plug signals to the on-board charger that the trigger button has been depressed so that when you unplug there is no current being drawn and no arcing.

If you put the "brick" in the car, hardwired to the OBC, all of those functions are meaningless since they only work on the connection between the brick and the car. You might as well not have it all.

Some of these things could be handled "manually" (plug in the car end, then the wall end, then push a button to start the charge; push a button to stop the charge then unplug at the wall, then at the car; and don't forget to manually set the car's amperage draw to match the source or you'll blow a breaker that you probably can't reset; hope that all the outlets you use are up to modern code and have GFCI and that it's working properly), but it's better if it's all automatic when being used by random members of the public.

Besides, all of the complaints about the EVSE, size, weight, price, are correctable over the long haul. I fully expect to see smaller, sleeker and cheaper EVSEs over time, unless EVs die out again, in which case, this won't matter a hoot.
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Re: 110v Charger on board

Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:24 pm

LEAFer wrote:
Ingineer wrote:
ebill3 wrote:Safety and law suits? Maybe, but note that Tesla model S allows users to plug in directly to 120/240 VAC.
Not true! They use a proprietary EVSE.

-Phil
For the Tesla Roadster with its 120V Spare Mobile Connector cable there is no intermediate EVSE. The pilot signal line is connected to GND when you slide the switch on the proprietary barrel connector. That "signals" the OBC to default to 15A. On the touchscreen you can "dial down" to 12A if desired.
So what they have is an small in-line EVSE. It's still not plugging a NEMA cord directly into the car! You could probably build a J1772 version for the Leaf.
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smkettner
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Re: 110v Charger on board

Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:42 pm

davewill wrote:
smkettner wrote:What exactly is the safety issue of having the brick mounted in the vehicle? ...
I know this has been posted many times. The EVSE provides GFCI protection. It makes sure the contacts are not hot if you happen to drop the plug into a puddle at your feet or if it's raining when you go to plug in. It signals to the car what the max amperage it can draw is. The J1772 plug signals to the on-board charger that the trigger button has been depressed so that when you unplug there is no current being drawn and no arcing.

If you put the "brick" in the car, hardwired to the OBC, all of those functions are meaningless since they only work on the connection between the brick and the car. You might as well not have it all.

Some of these things could be handled "manually" (plug in the car end, then the wall end, then push a button to start the charge; push a button to stop the charge then unplug at the wall, then at the car; and don't forget to manually set the car's amperage draw to match the source or you'll blow a breaker that you probably can't reset; hope that all the outlets you use are up to modern code and have GFCI and that it's working properly), but it's better if it's all automatic when being used by random members of the public.

Besides, all of the complaints about the EVSE, size, weight, price, are correctable over the long haul. I fully expect to see smaller, sleeker and cheaper EVSEs over time, unless EVs die out again, in which case, this won't matter a hoot.
OK so put the GFI on the end of the cord like a $25 hairdryer.

As for dropping it in the water.... jeezo this is something special about a car? Maybe my drill should have an evse?
The little GFI on the end should cover this anyway. Or just have a 10' cord attached that can be coiled and fit into a pocket up front.

If the charge ramps up slowly after a 2 second delay it will not matter what end is plugged first.

How do you set the amperage now to avoid tripping a breaker? No switches or dials on my evse.
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Re: 110v Charger on board

Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:57 pm

DoxyLover wrote:
LEAFer wrote:
Ingineer wrote:Not true! They use a proprietary EVSE.

-Phil
For the Tesla Roadster with its 120V Spare Mobile Connector cable there is no intermediate EVSE. The pilot signal line is connected to GND when you slide the switch on the proprietary barrel connector. That "signals" the OBC to default to 15A. On the touchscreen you can "dial down" to 12A if desired.
So what they have is an small in-line EVSE. It's still not plugging a NEMA cord directly into the car! You could probably build a J1772 version for the Leaf.
No. No in-line EVSE, no contactor. Basically they are violating J1772 for this spare connector. If you plug in the 120V end first the pins on the barrel connector are "hot" (but pretty much unreachable without "tiny instruments", and there's a buil-in GFCI at the 120V plug end). Standard practice is to plug the barrel connector (J-plug on LEAF) into the car, then plug in to 120V receptacle, then slide the switch (which is not a proximity switch like the J-plug) to connect the pilot signal line (in the car) to GND. The car (OBC) "interprets" (translates/fakes) this as a 15A equivalent pilot signal.

This spare connector would never work on a fully compliant J1772 car no matter what you did to it to fit mechanically, because there's no pilot signal generated.
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davewill
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Re: 110v Charger on board

Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:52 pm

smkettner wrote: OK so put the GFI on the end of the cord like a $25 hairdryer.

As for dropping it in the water.... jeezo this is something special about a car? Maybe my drill should have an evse?
The little GFI on the end should cover this anyway. Or just have a 10' cord attached that can be coiled and fit into a pocket up front.

If the charge ramps up slowly after a 2 second delay it will not matter what end is plugged first.

How do you set the amperage now to avoid tripping a breaker? No switches or dials on my evse.
The EVSE is set to 12a so that the 15a breakers (lowest capacity in general use) won't trip...as you knew before you said it. As far as the GFCI at the end of the cord, in a way you're right. It should be perfectly possible to package the whole EVSE in that manner in the future and I hope they do.

As far as the water goes, I think they were assuming the general public might not take even the minimal care you would with your drill.

Anyway, you asked why and so I told you the reasons why, although I'm quite certain you already knew them all. Feel free to disagree, but the decision was made long before we bought our cars and fighting against it seems futile to me.
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smkettner
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Re: 110v Charger on board

Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:26 pm

Could just as easy have a 6a or 12a selector switch right there by the inlet or cord cover.

Of course it would put ingineer out of the business of upgrading the evse and sell more wall units. :(

I just see the gasoline mentality that the hose must connect to the car. And that is probably best for L2 & L3 especially for public infrastructure.

More cars might get sold if the 120v cord was simplified.

My hope is still for the future. As said before, done is done for now.
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Re: 110v Charger on board

Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:50 pm

smkettner wrote:What exactly is the safety issue of having the brick mounted in the vehicle?

Nothing is more confounding than the 12" leader that just begs for an extention cord that is not allowed.
At least the Germans got that part right allowing close to 2 meters.

I never did like 8 track with the split songs and large gaps. Bulky also. Never actually owned one though.
So put it in your car, if this is such a big deal for you why haven't you done it? Talk is cheap. Get back to us on how long the connector lasts before it breaks or melts. Please post pictures.

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Re: 110v Charger on board

Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:26 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:So put it in your car, if this is such a big deal for you why haven't you done it? Talk is cheap. Get back to us on how long the connector lasts before it breaks or melts. Please post pictures.
Once I get my OpenEVSE board and work out a reasonable way to integrate with the J1772 charge port I will be doing it.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 3&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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